C5 2.2 HDi - Poor Economy??

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 29 Mar 2009, 21:06

A leak of turbo boost will upset the whole fueling.

Your MAf measures all the air entering the ducting and going into the turbo. The ECU works out how much fuel to inject based on the measured air flow. So, if your high pressure ducting has sprung a leak between the turbo and the inlet manifold then all the air isn't mixing with the fuel so, potentially, you're running very rich. I've known other diesels (eg my mate's X type jag 2.0 diesel) kick out lots of black smoke because of this turbo boost leak problem.

The particulate filter on your 2.2 hdi may be working overtime to try to keep your smoke output down.

A loss of presurized air could be the cause of your poor economy. If it's only a small leak maybe your performance won't be afected too much. If it was a big boost leak you'd certainly notice it.

corsehf · Post by **corsehf** » 02 Apr 2009, 04:25

As an update:
Intercooler now fitted but! - it has made no difference to the ESP/Anti-pollution fault.
Car seems to run better, nippier so to say but still the ESP/Anti-pollution fault flags up as soon as i reach around 60mph.
However, things have now got worse, on my way to work last night, the car just died on me whilst doing 40mph. A funny sounding rattle from the engine and big plume of white smoke from behind and the engine just stopped.
A week earlier, it did a similar thing but started immediately as soon as the RAC man arrived!!. He said the car was showing a P1429 error code which he did not know what it was. Last night however, the car would not start and the RAC man could not connect up his laptop to check?? He had given up and was calling a recovery truck when i thought i would try to start it again and it started!! in a huge cloud of more white smoke!!
Has anybody come across anything like this??

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 02 Apr 2009, 09:59

Is the car using any oil ? has the fuel filter been changed ? The diesel additive system seems to clog up the fuel filters pretty quick (ie before their even due to be changed) if you take the filter out you will see a black sludgy residue if thats the problem.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 02 Apr 2009, 22:31

The ESP/Anti Pollution fault can be due to an overboost because the boost control sleeve on the turbo isn't moving correctly either because it's stuck or more likely, the vacuum actuator isn't sucking to move the sleeve because the pipework has perished.

If I were you I'd get underneath and check out the actuator and pipework.

Don't forget to support the car well on axle stands etc.. unless you want to be a limbo dancing champion !

broyty · Post by **broyty** » 02 Apr 2009, 23:22

Hi did the smoke smell like burning oil

cheers
Mick

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 14 Apr 2009, 23:47

Putting aside for a moment engine dying with lots of white smoke.

The ESP / Pollution warning will come up for almost any engine detected fault that could cause the engine to operate in a manner that could be polluting (ECC requirement).

The ESP warning is displayed because it cannot get the data it requires from the engine ECU either because the engine failure is such that the ECU doesn't compute it or because it doesn't appear on the CAN buss.

From much reading and personal experience the appearance of this message under the conditions you describe together with dropping down into limp mode are often related to Turbo Overboost, if this was the case it will be locked into the ECU and should have been displayed when you had the analyser attached.

Failure of the swirl valve control from the analyser (interesting that because there is nothing on a Lexia to tell if the swirl system has failed or not) will almost certainly affect the operation of the Turbo, from my own observations and measurements at least 700Mbs of Vacuum is required for satisfactory control of the Turbo, it does not requires a very big hole in either the pipe to the swirl valve diaphragm or the diaphragm itself to reduce this to 2/300 mbars and at this level the Turbo will not control correctly.
To analyse this a good vacuum gauge and bits of pipe and T connectors is required. However a quick way of proving the point is to identify the swirl control electrovalve which is directly below the swirl valve actuator arm. Pull the rubber pipe of the TOP of this valve and plug the end with a suitable sized wood / plastic /metal plug. Then go and drive the car for a few days, the lack of swirl valve operation will not make a lot of difference in performance as the valve is open although economy may suffer.
If after a week you no longer get the warnings then you will know where the problem lies.
It has been suggested that you visually check the piping to the swirl control which is always a good starting point but much of the swirl control pipework is difficult to eye ball and it doesn't require much of a hole to cause the problem.

White smoke and engine stopping, this rather implies unburnt diesel or oil but if the engine is getting diesel why would it stop? The FAP system will automaticall do a filter regeneration cycle every so often. This as I understand it involves injecting extra diesel into the engine when the exhaust valve is open to raise the exhaust temperature (kind of afterburner) which then burns of the carbon collected in the filter.
I wonder if this is what is happening and either the ECU is throwing a wobbly or the pump cannot supply enough diesel to keep the engine going and what happens if the turbo is not working properly which in this case is a real possibility, I don't really know just speculation. A lexia has the facility to run a FAP regeneration cycle on demand might be worth doing that if you can get access to one.
Another speculative scenario: if the Turbo control is not working correctly is it getting to hot causing seals to leak and oil getting into the hot side maybe intermittent seizing of the turbo( turbo seals are often scroll seals if the turbo stops spinning the seals stop sealing) this really will cause clouds of smoke.

cachaciero

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 20 Apr 2009, 11:10

Considering all that is going on with the car a trip to a Bosch specialist would be wise assuming you can afford it. That would be my preference over a dealership.

Steve.

corsehf · Post by **corsehf** » 04 May 2009, 11:46

Hi, thanks for all the replies so far, big help!
Sorry i have not posted for a while but had issues with work especially as it has now gone under due to the current climate

, crap really as we had loads of work on!!

.
Since my last post, the car is now running fine as regards it ticking over ok and not cutting out. Turned out to be a dirty injector, a dodgy fuel pump (tank) and dodgy fuel regulator. All this cost a fortune

.
However, it did not cure the ESP/AntiPollution fault.
This still comes up as on a Lexia as Turbo overboost which could be caused by several things including a new turbo!!

.
My next attempt now is to try this 'Innotec Turbo Clean' which has good reports with the VAG people out there in the hope it will clean the Turbo's vanes and free them off.

cachaciero,
You were correct when you say that the 'Swirl Valve' does not come up on the Lexia, this was tested at the time by a 'Mac Scanner'.
All the Lexia experts i have spoken to since have dismissed this diaphragm as they say it would not give me any problems??

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 04 May 2009, 14:53

corsehf wrote:Hi, thanks for all the replies so far, big help!
.
However, it did not cure the ESP/AntiPollution fault.
This still comes up as on a Lexia as Turbo overboost which could be caused by several things including a new turbo!! .
My next attempt now is to try this 'Innotec Turbo Clean' which has good reports with the VAG people out there in the hope it will clean the Turbo's vanes and free them off.

cachaciero,
You were correct when you say that the 'Swirl Valve' does not come up on the Lexia, this was tested at the time by a 'Mac Scanner'.
All the Lexia experts i have spoken to since have dismissed this diaphragm as they say it would not give me any problems??

Bo@*ocks! I've just changed mine for exactly the same symptoms that you have, the diaphragm had five small holes in it.

The Turbo and the swirl control actuator aka diaphragm share the same vacuum source
if there is a big enough hole anywhere in the system it will affect operation of both the swirl valves and the Turbo. It is my belief that any car with more than 60K on the clock is likely to have at least one "thin" spot in the diaphragm. have written at some length on this both on various threads in this forum but also on Yahoo groups C5-L, go read.

Note: much of the Citroen documentation implies that vacuum is only applied to the swirl valve actuator above 2400 rpm i.e ev is only open above this figure, this is wrong the EV is open upto 2400 rpm and the swirl actuator has vacuum applied to it until 2400.

The only way of checking the vacuum system is with a vac gauge. However I would strongly suggest that you :-
1 Temporarily remove the air ducting that comes out of the air filter box to the solid plastic ducting that goes over the back of the engine.
2. Identify the swirl electrovalve which is bolted on the engine underneath the ducting just removed.
3 Pull off the curved pipe on top of the electro valve.
4 Plug the curved rubber pipe with a suitable bit of plastic / wood / spare bolt of appropriate size. (This isolates the diaphragm, electrovalve and the length of pipe that runs to it so the vac source only has the turbo to supply)
5. Replace air ducting
6 Go drive the car for a few days if this is your problem the service light should clear after about the third time of starting and running the engine and will not come back.

None operation of swirl valve is not a major problem you will loose some bottom end torque but as your turbo is likely to be working a lot better you may not even notice

Cost of bits to replace diaphragm is about £27.00.

Cachaciero

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 04 May 2009, 16:27

cachaciero thats great advise. That's a very useful diagnostic you've given us there. I'll print this one off and stick it in my book of useful things.

Thanks very much

corsehf · Post by **corsehf** » 05 May 2009, 19:18

cachaciero, I do not doubt you at all, i was trying to gain any info from the 2 guys i have been using, one a Citroen Expert (with the Lexia) and the other is a Bosch Diagnostics expert but neither have come across this 'diaphragm' splitting and causing issues. Well, lets hope they are about to!!

cachaciero, is it possible to post or PM me any instructions or pics so that i can check my diaphragm personally as i would love to prove them wrong also. In the mean time, i will do that other check that you mentioned.

Thanks for the reply.

wheeler · Post by **wheeler** » 05 May 2009, 20:41

I totally agree that a leak on any part of all the vaccum operated components EGR valve, turbo actuator, swirl actuator etc. will cause problems with the others.
Any decent garage equiped with a mityvac gauge could check the swirl actuator in a couple of minutes.

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 06 May 2009, 07:01

Is the swirl chamber butterfly thingy the rod coming up from the right (gearbox) side of the engine to the top of the engine with the ball joint on it, if it is mine wont stay connected to the arm, the black plastic socket pulls off the ball as soon as i start the car and the rod moves!!!
Would that be why the car is sluggish when first pulling away, it seems to hesitate for a second or 2 then pulls ok.
Rob

cachaciero · Post by **cachaciero** » 06 May 2009, 21:10

h2ocooler wrote:Is the swirl chamber butterfly thingy the rod coming up from the right (gearbox) side of the engine to the top of the engine with the ball joint on it, if it is mine wont stay connected to the arm, the black plastic socket pulls off the ball as soon as i start the car and the rod moves!!!
Would that be why the car is sluggish when first pulling away, it seems to hesitate for a second or 2 then pulls ok.
Rob

In a word yes! ...well almost certainly:-) I was surprised when I finally got mine working as it should at the low end improvement.

The plastic socket thingy has also been reported as common failure on other forums.

I noticed on my car after fitting a new swirl valve actuator that the alignment of the pushrod and valve quadrant is miles out, the socket naturally sits about 1 inch from the ball pin on the quadrant ideally either the push rod needs a joggle in it or the mounting need bending inwards a bit. Bending the mounting plate is not an option without removing it as appears to be quite a solid bit of metal putting a jogle in the push rod is a more viable option if you have a couple of big pliers and strong wrists

One correspondent on the C5-L group had worked out a way of holding it on with wire.

cachaciero

h2ocooler · Post by **h2ocooler** » 07 May 2009, 00:07

Ahh Cool, now I have another job to do!
Thanks
Rob

French Car Forum

C5 2.2 HDi - Poor Economy??

On Swirl Valves Turbo's and ESP/Anti Pollution messages.