Xantia Estate Handling

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Post by Spaces »

Xac wrote: I also need to unblock the vent on the tank as there's often a sucking sound when I open the filler cap, which isn't helping.
Yes, but if it was going to implode it would have more likely happened on a long run with low fuel, in hotter weather. A depression in the tank will show up any leaky joints in the lines. Needs sorting asap.

As for estates and their handling, is the rear axle - thinking of deforming self-steer bushes in particular - any different from the saloon?
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Post by addo »

Not significantly. The cylinders are larger bore, but I think the trailing arms themselves may almost interchange (excluding caliper mount hole sizing).

There's no bushes in the Xantia rear other than the subframe mounts, which are nine tenths rigid.
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Post by Xaccers »

falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
Xac wrote:When I cleaned the mesh on the sender I replaced the clips (I'm not as skilled as Jim in reusing them :D ) with jubilee clips so they're nice and tight, but, with the age of the rubber there's always the possibility of small cracks.
I also need to unblock the vent on the tank as there's often a sucking sound when I open the filler cap, which isn't helping.
Thats one of the perils of running on veg oil Xac, treat it to some diesel or up to 10% petrol per tank full and the blockage will clear, I had exactly the same problem last year.

regards Nigel.
It'll be gummed up veg in the mail vent most likely Nigel, will give it a poke around or drill a small hole in the middle of the filler cap.
There's only a tiny pst sometimes when I undo it.
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Post by dieseldoggy »

On my zanty est ive gone to 195/65/15's same size as pug est's cheaper to buy plus bring speedo spot on.
Im using 205 1.9 alloy wheels in orig white! which matches car.
Was running uniroyal 550's which gripped great but lost shoulders/edge after a while so went to 590? xlt ones for small mpv's etc with stiffer sidewalls made it very direct but bit tramliney now on back but last very well.
using firestones tz2000's on front lasted well and grip great.

but then main thing with zanty's and FW drives is setting up for the corner in advance they don't like to be taken round corner off throttle.
Plus if you want to progress at a good rate round the twisty stuff i'e country lanes you need to have a feel for the car and a sensitive right foot well both for that matter. so that you can balance the throttle as when you have it right you will feel it hook up as you take the corner.

I don't go much over 60mph in mine but as a friend was saying but you go round the corner at the same speed!

Well after watching/whincing when being driven by others that that have the use of the controls like something more akin to a light switch? click on click off and nothing in between makes you realise why they have so many dents and can't go round corners etc.

One thing with BM's/mercs etc is that their macpherson struts unlike fords etc have varible geometery built into it.As most of the others have it set as a compremise.

It's one of the reason mitsubushi evo's never did much in rallying after they went from grp A to WRC as went from multi link to struts all round
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Post by Spaces »

I've used 195 65 15s on Xantias before, they work especially well on the non-hydractive cars which have a bit more roll at a given speed. Work fine on the trick susp too, but doesn't show the chassis at its best at medium speeds.

Contrary to most current thinking, I prefer a tyre contact patch which is slightly longer longitudinally than laterally. Usually associated with a slightly higher profile (195-65-15 instead of a 205-60-15) the tyre can absorb a few more small imperfections in the road and each individual bit of tread is in contact with the road momentarily longer. This is most noticeable in snow, last year I changed a set of 175-65-14s and the traction was significantly better and the car more stable, same make of tyre, similar age, similar wear. (Then I found some 165r14s which were awesome, but they were winter tyres!)

There's also the added benefit of being able to slice through standing water that little bit better.
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Post by andy5 »

Spaces wrote: Contrary to most current thinking, I prefer a tyre contact patch which is slightly longer longitudinally than laterally. Usually associated with a slightly higher profile (195-65-15 instead of a 205-60-15) the tyre can absorb a few more small imperfections in the road and each individual bit of tread is in contact with the road momentarily longer.
I'm not sure I understand the reasoning here.

Do you mean the 65 profile will be more flexible, or are you just thinking of its 7 mm greater diameter thus slightly less curved, and also is 7 mm narrower [Michelin] that significant?
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Post by Spaces »

A tyre which is slightly taller in the sidewall will have a little more give in the sidewall, everything else being the same. However other suspension bushings are designed to work with a certain amount of tyre 'give' so you can't go too far without spoiling the set up, but one aspect ratio size different is barely different from the varying makes of tyre.

It works best if a car comes with the widest tyre specced for that particular model. No point in going narrower from a 185 width on a Xantia. I do notice the slight difference through puddles/on a poorly drained road in heavy rain with a tyre size narrower but of course it's tread depth and pattern which makes most difference.

As was mentioned above, a 195-65-15 is often available for a little less money than the 205 tyre as it's a bit less popular. I managed a fantastic deal on some 165x14s (not for a Xantia!) last winter. They were about half the price of equivalent 185-60s. Equally a friend with a Kangoo saved about a hundred on a set of Michelin Alpins by going down to a slightly more obscure size.

Be aware that in the event of an insurance claim if it is the engineer's opinion that wrong or odd-sized tyres helped cause an accident then you're in queer street! In Europe many different variations of tyre are used - in Britain it is often the wider tyre which is chosen, partly through respect for fashion.

edit - yes, forgot to pick up on your point andy5 that the larger the rolling diameter (everything else the same) the more comfort. Think of a 28" bike wheel compared with a 20". Huge difference in rolling resistance and comfort.
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Post by andy5 »

Spaces wrote:A tyre which is slightly taller in the sidewall will have a little more give in the sidewall, everything else being the same.

...

edit - yes, forgot to pick up on your point andy5 that the larger the rolling diameter (everything else the same) the more comfort. Think of a 28" bike wheel compared with a 20". Huge difference in rolling resistance and comfort.
sure, but there's only 3 millimetres difference in the sidewall height of these particular 2 tyre sizes, and people wanting to replace ideally at the same gearing will have same height sidewalls even if the aspect ratio is different

and as there's only 7 millimetres difference in width between 195 and 205 (on one manufacturer I spoke to anyway), I think I'd argue with any insurance company that said the slightly narrower winter tyres had worse roadholding

any vogue for counting winter tyres as higher risk modifications strikes me as about the same as when catalysts became compulsory in petrol cars, and thus all cars had fuel injection, and for a short time insurance brokers were coming out with teeth-sucking crap that fuel injection meant higher performance higher risk and so on

I noticed about a year ago that 195 65 15 are cheaper than 205 60 15, after first discovering that none of the latter were in stock anywhere for a few weeks, and even Michelin couldn't tell me when the next ones would arrive
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Post by Spaces »

andy5 wrote:
people wanting to replace ideally at the same gearing will have same height sidewalls even if the aspect ratio is different
195/65 is the nearest to 205/60 without going far from 205 width. And remember two different makes of tyre with the same size may well have slightly different rolling circumferences.

As dieseldoggy said, the 195-65-15 size makes the speedometer a little more accurate.
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Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

I don't think its got anything to do with tyres Its usually the fault of the pilot
when things go wrong.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that I have second hand tyres on the rear of my xantia estate I have just checked the date on one of them it is 1992.

and it is only half worn and still in good condition.

it is more a matter of steering into the corner properly and accelerating out the other side a mix of throttle control and a good feel for the weight and balance/capability of the car/pilot. if you are a nervous pilot your probably
ten times more likely to muck it up going round a corner at speed.

in the past I have read threads with comments like the xantia has little or no
feel through the steering wheel of the road surface and surface conditions.

I agree that it seems to be reduced compared to other vehicles but the right mix of throttle control as pointed out above and lining the car up for a corner not braking into the corner or out of it and a feel for the car does much more than arguing the toss for an extra 2mm of tread contact on the road surface.

I think most of us do far to much straight road high speed driving which does nothing to teach us the capabilities/limits of the cars suspension.
I once drove from wales back to Kettering on nothing but back roads except to say for going through the center of leamington spa, it taught me a lot about the cornering ability of the xantia estate, if you've got the time to do it follow a rural route on a reasonably long journey trust me you'll enjoy it in an xantia fair go there are a lot of 30mph limits but there are also a lot of 60mph limits with sharp corners to practice on.

here in Northants there are lots of empty back roads to use when rush hour approaches and the A14 grinds to a halt and the xantia is the perfect comfort car for the job.
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Post by addo »

I managed a complete 180 (unintentional) whilst piloting the estate last week. The cause(s) almost certainly being in order, flat rear spheres, greasy road, excessive speed for a wet, off-camber corner. Being a big car, and fairly low speed, the unravelling was almost comically slow, maybe 25MPH. No damage other than embarrassment.

Once I've sorted the rear corners, I'll have another crack with all other conditions similar.
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Re: Xantia Estate Handling

Post by Old-Guy »

Couple of comments to add on the tyre/handling front. I wasn't at all impressed with Michelin Energys; wear well and give better fuel consumption (but the few percent improvement is trivial) not only is the grip indifferent but they're quite noisy too!

On New Year's day, embarrassed myself on a very sharp and narrow left hander on what passes for an A road in rural Devon; miles of twists and turns that I know well - a moments inattention talking to my other half. Thanks to the new Goodyear Ultragrip 8s, the O/S/F tyre bit into the wet tarmac and round she went - a bit of understeer but not much, the important thing is she stayed my side of the white line. The oncoming Range Poseur probably wet himself as old Xantia cornering on its door handles rocketed past. I don't deliberately drive like that, but it's good to know that the new Goodyears have such huge reserves of grip.
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Re: Xantia Estate Handling

Post by Northern_Mike »

I'll also add that the Michelin Primacys fitted to the C5 don't seem to be any better than a Nankang whatever it is. How do I know this? Well, I presumed the car had 4 Michelins on it. I obviously didn't look well enough. When I was taking it up North last Thursday to give to my brother, I did a very thorough check of all 4 tyres, and was surprised to find the NSR was a Nankang, not a Michelin. I'd been throwing it around wet or dry, snow or not, as though it was a Michelin. It obviously sticks as well as the others, as I'm still here and the car is still in one piece.
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Re: Xantia Estate Handling

Post by Citroenmad »

I need a new pair of front tyres on my Xantia estate, I replaced the rears with a new pair of Michelin Energy Savers a few months ago. So the sensible thing to do would be to replace the fronts with the same so it has a matching set of four Energy Savers. However, I did have them on the front for a while and found them to be quite good but could possibly be better in the wet. Not at all bad but they do let go earlier than I would like. On the rear they are very good and take a bit of unsticking, so perhaps they were not scrubbed in enough while I had them on the front.

Having had Michelin Energy Savers on an XM and C5 before/currently, I know they are pretty good tyres for everything, wet grip included. However, I do find Xantias in general wash wide earlier than the XM and C5 in wet condtions. So I have been looking at reviews for tyres with the best wet weather grip, surprisingly the Michelin come sout almost on top.

I will say that the Michelin Energy Savers available now are far superior to the previous style Michelin Energys (E3A). Wet grip on those is almost scary, I had them on my Activa and took them off, they ruined the car.

My Activa has Continental Premium Contact 2s on the front now, which are by far the best tyres I have had on that car. Wet weather grip is very good, and dry grip too but they are supposed to wear quicky. However, I would rather have the best grip and replace tyres more often.

So I'm undecided what to put on the front of the HDI, its current Dunlops are very low on tread and don't like gripping on wet corners too much. So they need changing asap.

I've been impressed with the grip from Goodyears in the past but have had two pairs which suffered serious structural defects. They were Duragrip and Excellence, neither would I ever have again. However my 75 has Goodyear Efficientgrips, which do seem very good indeed. It can be thrown around in the wet and has very good levels of grip.

I'll no doubt go for some more Michelins for the Xantia, as I like them on the whole and it will have a matching set then.

Xantia estate handling in general ... I like it! For a car which rides so well it can handle some enjoyable twisty roads with ease and at a good pace too. I rarely hang about and have not found any shortfalls with the Xantia for the type of car it is. Its very composed on demanding roads and delivers a more involved driving experience than the C5, which is very grippy and very safe, you need to be a total loon to get it out of shape with quality tyres. I enjoy getting the Xantia on some good roads, putting it into sport and enjoying a very composed but brisk drive. Id has many advantages over the C5, mainly better body control through better damping and also longer suspension travel, the C5 runs out of travel quite frequently on quick and flowing roads.
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Re: Xantia Estate Handling

Post by Old-Guy »

Citroenmad wrote:I will say that the Michelin Energy Savers available now are far superior to the previous style Michelin Energys (E3A). Wet grip on those is almost scary, I had them on my Activa and took them off, they ruined the car.
In that case, I withdraw my criticism of Michelin Energys - my experience is from 2 new ones I fitted to the front of the Xantia shortly after I bought it in April 2007. They weren't frighteningly bad, but I was disappointed that the improvement compared with the pair of very old and well worn (factory original) Michelins was nearly as much as I had expected and they were noticably noisier. The current Goodyear Ultragrip 8s (winter tyres) are very quiet in all respects.
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