Xantia starting problem - 1998 TD

KP · Post by KP » 20 Oct 2008, 14:14

Thats like 20% dilution rate jgra which is way above what you need if using rug.
Personally i've used 3litres in a full tank before and that was a tank that i brimmed as well with SVO. Smae should go for well settled and filtered wvo.
Put the unleaded in first, no more than 4 litres to a full tank and then fill with WVO.
This should mix it enough and doyou fine through the colder months.
If not try .5-1litre per 20litre tub and mix it in before pouring it in as the injection pump will do a good job of keeping it mixed in the tank.

It works out much cheaper than using diesel as you use less and it costs less per litre!

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 20 Oct 2008, 14:34

........

and I added the 10L to the top of the WVO ........

KP · Post by KP » 20 Oct 2008, 14:38

Not good as it will sit at the top of the wvo until it can mix enough which could take a while and then it may be that your injection pump takes through a whole dose of it in one go and that sets the sensors in all sorts of funny readings they have never thought they could see.

If you look in the owners handbook it should say that in very cold climates you can use small amounts of RUG to thin down diesel.
I guess at those kind of temps you would need to have just pure coolant mix in the system with no water added though and also worry about the engine oil going solid as well....

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 20 Oct 2008, 16:28

Jim has an IP with the stains and seizure caused by veg being mixed with something other than derv, really, you do not want to do it.
The mixing with unleaded is for something like -10/-20C which gives you an idea of how drastic adding petrol is.

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 20 Oct 2008, 16:41

Sounds like I may have been a bit lucky...

I have a spare IP at home and may fit it soon and get an expert

to look at present one..

Post by **CitroJim** » 20 Oct 2008, 18:35

Xac wrote:Jim has an IP with the stains and seizure caused by veg being mixed with something other than derv, really, you do not want to do it.

I saw a post referring to these deposits on the vegetableoildiesel forum the other day. It's apparantly where the veg breaks down and polymerises, just like the stuff on the outside of your chip pan.

Tricky stuff to remove. I'll soon be doing a rebuild of that pump, stripping it, cleaning it (if I can) and photoing it the whole way.

Another pump I dismantled that had run veg was also beginning to gum up after standing for about 10 months. There are some fine passages in a pump, especially in the timing device and the vanes of the lift pump can gum up and not properly "centrifuge" outward.

jgra1 wrote:...get an expert to look at present one..

No, you don't want an expert John. Definition of an expert: X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure...

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 20 Oct 2008, 19:01

that is true Jim

can you do it then ?

can we also strike a deal on your loft item ? 8)

Post by **CitroJim** » 20 Oct 2008, 19:41

jgra1 wrote: can you do it then ?

Well, as I'm not an "expert" by definition, I'd be happy to John

Try to send it to me sligtly better packed than a pump I received from eBay the other day. Packed in six carrier bags, a bin liner, a layer of bubble wrap, a;l swathed in what must have been a whole reel of parcel tape! The postie asked me what on earth it was. It looked a bit like a leg of lamb

It survived remarkably intact!

jgra1 wrote: can we also strike a deal on your loft item ?

I thought we had

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 20 Oct 2008, 20:13

Hmmm what in interesting thread... I didn;t think a DERV engine would like too much petrol...

PERSONALLY, I dont think in UK we need to worry about DERV thinkening, we dont get cold enough for it... as for thinning Veg, I would have thought DERV would do that sufficiently - with no need to add petrol...

interesting.....

Paul

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 20 Oct 2008, 20:42

agree Paul from what little I know..

I have been using SVO last winter and WVO only since about March.

I think I am just finding the limits of what works, and learning the hard way about cheap chippy motoring

I have a chuck this and that in and see what happens approach, which is naughty !

Jim, cool

red_dwarfers · Post by **red_dwarfers** » 20 Oct 2008, 20:59

jgra1 wrote: I think I am just finding the limits of what works, and learning the hard way about cheap chippy motoring

I have a chuck this and that in and see what happens approach, which is naughty !

I've got a 20 litre container of blue anti freeze in the garage, would you like that to put in your fuel tank?

Certainly stop the veg from freezing over

Post by **CitroJim** » 20 Oct 2008, 22:00

Petrol is quite an acceptable way to winterise diesel Paul and in fact some handbooks actually recommend it in cold climates. Petrol is also the favoured thinner for those who homebrew biodiesel, especially for brews made from the more highly saturated fats that have a far higher pour point than is desirable. Up to about 5% seems to be OK.

Diesel is winterised generally by blending in a lighter distallate of diesel, stuff that is close to paraffin (kerosene, Jet fuel etc.). Paraffin actually would be a good thinner but it is illegal to do so in the UK as no duty has been paid on it.

Diesel seems to work best as a thinner for SVO (virgin veg.) and WVO as using a lighter distallate like petrol will give mixing problems as KP says. It'll separate out and sit on top.

The critical thing to check with using veg or WVO in the cooler months is its "cloud point". This is the temperature at which sufficient wax crystals form to make the fuel go cloudy when looked at in a glass jar. In WVO that began life as highly saturated or hydrogenated fats will have an appreciably higher cloud point than say rapeseed oil which is has a nice low cloud point and is relatively stable. Set up some experiments to determine the cloud point of your brews as when this point is reached, plugging of the fuel filter is not far off. It's also useful to determine how any thinning agents homogonise with the oil and to observe any tendency to separate out.

Once started, the fuel heater will keep everything running nicely.

With WVO, it appears to be virtually essential to ensure it is adequately dewatered and filtered to 1 micron to avoid suffering short filter lives.

WVO presents a further risk. Depending on the base oil, some unsaturated oils are very prone to raipid oxidisation which results in the oil readily polymerising (i.e. going all sticky and plastic) and coating the working surfaces of the pump. This could well be exasavated by use of thinning agents like petrol and diesel. WVO has already begun the oxidisation process simply on account of being used for frying etc. and is likely to already have polymers floating around in it although good filtering should remove a lot of it. Filtering and standing seems to be the secret behind successful WVO use.

Mechanically, the pump will stand it, and I'll soon know how cleanable these deposits are and how recoverable a contaminated pump is. For sure they'll cause problems, and I can foresee the tiny hole that admits pressure to the timing device being one of the first to gum up. This'll have implications for starting as the timing will be unable to advance correctly and with the longer ignition delay of WVO and SVO as against diesel, this is going to case starting problems.

I don't use veg myself (2.1TD - Lucas EPIC) but I find the whole subject incredibly interesting and I often visit a very excellent
forum on the subject. Well worth a close read.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 20 Oct 2008, 22:04

I was just surprised, Id never heard of it thats all...

As I said above, - Interesting

Rgds
Paul

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 20 Oct 2008, 23:11

Just out of interest have you checked the tank pick up? I had similar problems and the pickup was half blocked and the fuel filter full of foul stinking slime.

A photo of the filter housing here -

A photo of the contents of the filter housing -

Steve.

KP · Post by KP » 21 Oct 2008, 08:24

Mixing anything you add to the WVO is bet down indoors if possible as it makes it all easier.

Jgra do you always brim your tank full of wvo and the mix or do you run light as it were and carry enough in you for the journeys you need?

Its best i think if your only doing small jots everyday to top up every other day with enough fuel to get you by as this way you reduce the wieght in the car, keep economy and handling up and keep the fuel in the tank circulating a lot more often. This in turn will help keep the engine and IP happy as the fuel will pick up the heat a lot quicker from the engine bay.

Another option is to buy something like a Kenlowe hotstart or the like and preheat your engine to say 60-70'c if possible and then the oil will warm up as soon as you start pumping

I use SVO but tend to stick to no more than 1/2 tank unless im going a long way and even heading to my folks and back(90miles there and same back) i stick to half a tank and manage it just fine.