CitroJim's AX, C3 Picasso, Cycling and Running Tales

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 15 Nov 2009, 22:11

CitroJim wrote:Toby, you've been a start today and great company Very Happy Thanks hugely for all your help!

Not a problem, was an absolute pleasure. I thoroughly enjoyed myself and learnt a great deal. I must thank you for a tasty lunch too!

I'm also starting to have thoughts about Activas again now that I've experienced one

CitroJim wrote:I could lust after an Alfa...

I can understand why. I should have taken you out in it, it's quick and sounds fantastic as you heard. I may have to post some pictures after its had a wash if I may.

Once again Jim, my thanks to you for a very enjoyable and educational day

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 16 Nov 2009, 21:46

Indeed Toby, I should have had a little ride in the Alfa but my V6 was watching and she can get jealous

Did you find your way to the A34 OK?

Yesterday work ended with me finding the slotted nut was very tight and my special tool broke under the strain. Well, the tool proper did not break but the welds on the nut gave out. My bad

This evening I made a MK2 version of the tool by sacrificing a cheap 22mm socket and cutting slots in it.

The nut was still FT even with this tool and even with my long breaker I could not move it. I then had a bit of an idea and remembered that ages ago I'd bought a cheap electric impact gun from Aldi for some silly price and had never used it.

It got used this evening with complete success

It made the nut appear hand-tight!

That done, it was a simple enough task to press the pinion shaft out from the bearing inner races and one outer race happy drifted out using a drift and hammer (with care) but the other inner race would not move as there was insufficient land for the drift to work against. I needed to make up a mandrel to press it out and made a remarkable discovery. I had an old Peugeot 106 wheel bearing laying by the press and this turned out to be exactly the right size to work as a mandrel to press out the troublesome race

What a stroke of luck...

Next task is to install the new bearings on the pinion and reassemble generally. I need to get a torque wrench that will go up to 150 Nm as the tightness of the slotted nut will be setting the pre-load on the bearings and I reckon having the right pre-load is critical here.

Barring any showstoppers, weather permitting, the car should be back in running order by Sunday

I'm very happy this evening...

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 16 Nov 2009, 22:37

CitroJim wrote:I'm very happy this evening...

Excellent Jim, coming on a treat. If you find you need someone to help drop the engine back in then give me a shout.

CitroJim wrote:Indeed Toby, I should have had a little ride in the Alfa but my V6 was watching and she can get jealous Laughing

Did you find your way to the A34 OK?

Ahh I see, well we couldn't have that

Yes I did Jim, you're directions were perfect and I have to say it was a much better route than long tedious motorways. Had me grinning after that little route to the A34 and only caught traffic at the top of said A34.

On another note, I've been reading into the 4HP20 and discovered that the Alfa 166 Sportronics use them! Albeit with a manual mode added on. Not only that but I have spotted one that has a failed box

And I'm also on the look out for an Activa, for that I blame you! (in the nicest possible way)

Deanxm · Unread post by **Deanxm** » 16 Nov 2009, 23:28

Looking good Jim, shame about the unplanned learning curve but on the plus side you seem to be pulling these V's out quicker and quicker each time, im sure you are almost getting the engine out and back in faster than the average man can do a heater matrix now

Hope its smooth sailing from here now.

D

Unread post by **xantia_v6** » 16 Nov 2009, 23:31

CitroJim wrote: Next task is to install the new bearings on the pinion and reassemble generally. I need to get a torque wrench that will go up to 150 Nm as the tightness of the slotted nut will be setting the pre-load on the bearings and I reckon having the right pre-load is critical here.

Very good progress Jim. Did you play hookey? I have a torque wrench here that according to the box goes up to 210 Nm. Bought for doing the rear hub nuts on the E-type (turned out to be useless for that, but that is another story).

I could drop it off tomorrow evening if it will speed things along. It will be very convenient if we get it back on the road before gritting starts around here/

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Nov 2009, 08:15

No hookey played Mike 8) I'm far too busy at work for that

With Toby's excellent help, such good progress was made on Sunday that last evening I had plenty of time to concentrate on the nut

No worries on the torque wrench as I've found an alternative. The Citroen manual says tighten to 40Nm and then tighten a further 30 degrees. I have the tools for that...

Pleased you had a good run home Toby, the A4321 would be geat without that stifling 50 limit on it

So, thinking of an Activa then

8) Be careful as good ones are a bit thin on the ground now. Most important on any Activa is to look for dry rams. Everything else can be sorted fairly economically.

The 4HP20, apart from its PSA applications, was used in big Renaults, the Mercedes V Class and of course the Alfas. They're not interchangeable though as they all use different castings.

Interesting on the 166 with a duff gearbox. What's the symptoms? At least you know how to fix a 4HP20 now

Toby_HDi · Unread post by **Toby_HDi** » 17 Nov 2009, 13:30

Indeed it would, even down here they seem to stick 50 limits on decent roads where they are not needed.

Indeed, luckily I have FCF and your excellent buying guide to help should I go to look at one.

Indeed, I was surprised to discover they were used in all sorts of applications. Symptoms of this Alfa was dash light on, dropping into safety mode. The oil was changed (obviously partly, as we know) as the light was thought to mean oil was overheating. It's been stood for a while but would sometimes select all gears fine and other times only 3rd and reverse before its lay up. Was started last week and would only select 3rd or reverse.

I have to say I'm tempted, the only thing catching me out would be making the special tools up and pressing out any bearings.

KP · Unread post by KP » 17 Nov 2009, 13:53

Go on Jim

lexi · Unread post by **lexi** » 17 Nov 2009, 17:23

Surely lots of these Xantias must have been thrashed in sports mode. With a 3LTR V6 and lower gears that is a bit of a pounding ? Maybe the box aint up to that? That being said the ones that last 150k can have no complaints. It is when they fail at 70-80k.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Nov 2009, 17:25

If it still selects 3rd and reverse Toby, there may not be a mechanical fault with the 'box. It is dropping, as you say, into 3rd emergency and if the light is on then the ECU is decidedly unhappy with something. First step is to run diagnostics across it and see what the fault is. Sadly, the diagnostics are likely to be different than the Citroen but whatever it is will boil down to a standard 4HP20 problem. There is a massive list of potential things that can light the light and drop it into 3rd emergency.

All the tools you need are here Toby

It may be worth a punt if cheap..

KP wrote:Go on Jim

But not for me Will. I really do have quite enough keeping me out of trouble for the foreseeable!!!

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Nov 2009, 17:55

lexi wrote:Surely lots of these Xantias must have been thrashed in sports mode. With a 3LTR V6 and lower gears that is a bit of a pounding ? Maybe the box aint up to that? That being said the ones that last 150k can have no complaints. It is when they fail at 70-80k.

Fundamentally Lexi, the 'box is built on the lines of a brick outhouse. Mechanically it is generally well engineered and up to the job.

I may be sticking my neck out here but I reckon almost all failures can be laid at the door of the "sealed for life" nature of the 'box and failures are caused by deteriorated oil. I reckon if the oil is changed regularly then they will go on for ever, nearly.

Failures so far seen have been clogging filters, burned out clutch as a result of the first leading to low and then zero oil pressure due to further clogging from bits of clutch;

A broken valve spring in the valve block; (may be related to the first as the valve in question is what controls normal mode/3rd emergency and the clutch in question could burn out if 3rd emergency and normal electronic control mode was in force at the same time.

A seized output gear bearing which then seems to cause a chain reaction of taking out the oil pump, the bearing support plate and the torque converter.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Nov 2009, 22:43

Good progress this evening. The new output gear bearings have been installed and I spent considerable time checking their pre-load and understanding the very complex method both ZF and Citroen give for checking it. Basically, the slotted nut does not set it. It is set by a spacer between the bearings. Both spacers I have were the same thickness and with it all assembled I can feel a minute tad of play so I reckon that equates to a given play of 0.03mm to 0.085mm that is specified.

The 'box is already to start going back together now, no further showstoppers have been found

We're on course for the weekend. Just hope the weather is kind

vince · Unread post by **vince** » 17 Nov 2009, 22:49

Incidentally Jim, how long does it now take you to whip out a V6 engine and box?

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 17 Nov 2009, 23:01

From start to sitting on the rug, I reckon, given nice weather and barring episodes like stuck intermediate driveshaft bearings, 6 hours Vince

That goes for any Xantia engine/transmission really. They're all mounted in the same way and come out the same way. The V6 is just a bit bigger and heavier...

Gareth has done an excellent write-up on how to do it

lexi · Unread post by **lexi** » 18 Nov 2009, 11:16

Very interesting Jim. Not Citreons fault either as Alfas have the same fail record with ZF box....BMW as well ?

Can the filter box be changed by dropping sump with all in situ?