1.9 Td against Hdi

juraj · Post by **juraj** » 11 Mar 2008, 23:51

hi all

can someone tell me why hdis are not suitable to veg oil? and what a conversion involves, also how NP how do ou boost a 1.9TD xantia to 11hp?

bye all

Post by **RichardW** » 12 Mar 2008, 07:51

See my posts on HDis:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hlight=hdi

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=23161

Whilst the 1.9TD 'feels' OK, it is miles off the pace of the HDi 110 - trouble is, the Hdi just gives linear accerlation without any fuss, so you don't think you're going very fast. Till you look down

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XantiaMan · Post by **XantiaMan** » 12 Mar 2008, 09:24

Mine is definatly on par without outright acceleration if not flexability and mpg, think i've mentioned it before on another post that mine pulls well from 1500rpm, nice shove from 2000rpm all the way to 4700rpm now, as i've tweaked the diaphragm stop

Its definatly unfair to compare a 90bhp IDI to a 110bhp DI especially in torque and the way the power is delivered. TBH i dont think i would like mine very much if i had not done a couple of tweaks which make massive improvements to driveability. It will quite happily pull to the redline in 5th if needed, and once in the 1500-4700 range there is no massive lag, just good pull.

The 1.9TD has a lot going for it, there are still loads of them about, and although the HDI is technically superior to it, that doesnt mean the 1.9 is without its merits if you unleash some of its potential like i have.

nick · Post by **nick** » 12 Mar 2008, 09:26

Nutcase wrote:Hi,
I would agree with the comment about HDi being a bit slow at low revs. I have a 2001 xsara 2.0HDI 110 (estate), and I found it a bit disappointing until the turbo kicked in at about 2200 rpm (fine after that). Also had a few gremlins with it: pinhole in vacuum canister of the turbo actuator (£300 for a recon turbo unit, plus many hours of fun removing/refitting it!), and at least 3 failed electrovalves (£40 a pop plus diagnostic hassles) .
I did however get the ecu remapped though (SP Tuning), and I have to say it transformed the car. Turbo now kicks in at about 1800 rpm plus a modest overall power increase, and it is now both quick and very driveable

I had my Xsara remapped by SP Tuning too and I agree its much improved.
I found recently though that it seemed to be getting increasingly sluggish at low revs, and was starting to produce quite a lot of black smoke under acceleration. I replaced the MAF sensor and now the sluggishness and smoke have gone and its running better than ever. I notice now that it pulls much better from low revs than my Xantia 1.9TD did. Previously before the MAF was replaced the HDi had surged, lurched and juddered if I tried to accelerate from low revs in a high gear. Now its very smooth and will go right down to tickover in 5th and accelerate back up to 70ish again without any flat spots or surging

Its surprising just how much difference the MAF makes and it made me wonder if people who complain about the HDi's lack of low down grunt have been driving one with a knackered or dirty air flow meter without realising. It doesn't normally bring any warning lights on so you wouldn't necessarily know....

steelcityuk · Post by **steelcityuk** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:17

I realize you're not asking this but my next move will be to a 2.0 CT with LPG .

Maybe my HDi's MAP sensor was naff!

Steve.

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:25

steelcityuk wrote:I realize you're not asking this but my next move will be to a 2.0 CT with LPG .

Maybe my HDi's MAP sensor was naff!

Steve.

Well, this would have been the engine I'd recommend for a Xantia...

WITH OR WITHOUT LPG!!
OK, I don't cover massive mileages
(*well, not in just the ONE car anyhow!

)

James - what are you searching for at this precise moment as I know for
a local VSX TD (saloon), and a SX HDi (110bhp estate), as well as the CX!!

Andrew

nick · Post by **nick** » 12 Mar 2008, 15:27

steelcityuk wrote: Maybe my HDi's MAP sensor was naff!

The way to tell, for future reference, is you unplug the connector from the MAF sensor then go for a drive. If the car runs worse with it unplugged then the MAF is probably ok. If it makes no difference, then you probably need a new one, or at least to try cleaning the existing one.
Mine actually ran better with it unplugged !

By the way it's the MAF (mass air flow) not the MAP, they're easily confused.

deian · Post by **deian** » 12 Mar 2008, 18:34

juraj wrote:hi all

can someone tell me why hdis are not suitable to veg oil? and what a conversion involves, also how NP how do ou boost a 1.9TD xantia to 11hp?

bye all

The hdi is too advanced for the thickness of veggie oil, the injectors are finer and they squirt at much more pressure, it MAY be possible, but I wouldn't bother trying myself. Just stick to the trusty 1.9td for that, works fine on mine (make sure it's a bosch pump only, NOT lucas).

converting a 1.9td (xantia or zx, it's a about the engine)... you need a preferably a mechanical bosch pump... then simply tweak the wastegate on the turbo, then you turn some screws on the fuel pump, it's as simple as that, obviously to get 110bhp, a healthy engine is needed, and a rolling road, to know where to stop tweaking. etc etc.

np · Post by np » 12 Mar 2008, 22:38

I had my Xantia done at www.vanaaken.com
Prety much like deian said.A good healthy engine is needed,mine was 110k.They 1st make sure its running,fueling & boosting as Citroen intended.Then make all tweaks to it,dyno it & road test after.The figures i got were 112 bhp & 179 lbft.Made the car a lot more driveable,better mpg & quicker.
But the Hdi 110 before i got it when i used it as my Dads company car always felt better & quicker.I`m sure there is a topic on somewhere about it a few years ago.

Post by **elma** » 13 Mar 2008, 01:08

andmcit wrote: James - what are you searching for at this precise moment as I know for
a local VSX TD (saloon), and a SX HDi (110bhp estate), as well as the CX!!

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
I think I'd like whichever of the xantia drove best.
Are they both on the road?
Don't think it'd be fair for me to have a Cx.
After a lot of thought I decided I'd ruin one unless it was a 2nd car.
Please send me details of the Xantia though, I'm interested.

James

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 13 Mar 2008, 01:18

The S2 HDi estate is Peter's - IS AN EXCLUSIVE WITH A NEW MOT!!

Dark blue metallic with cream leather and on about 160k miles.
He's not going to 'give it away' on the price though even on that
mileage.

The VSX is my green L plate that you've seen before - the one with
the weird wiring for the air horns you weren't impressed with!!
6 Oct '08 MOT. No real issues apart from a firming up ride - nice and
tight to drive still and everything works. If I can get that VSX estate
on it's feet this will have to find a new home! Always been my most
reliable back up car but I've got too many around the house!

Andrew

Post by **elma** » 13 Mar 2008, 11:44

I like the sound of both of them.
As you know K/L reg Vsx is my favourite.
I do remember your vsx, it's a nice car other than the funny wires.
The Hdi would probably be better for me though, being an estate.
It has age on its side as well.

I'd like to meet both cars together if it's possible (hide the Cx)
If not then can I go and see the Hdi, it all depends on how it drives really.
I'm expecting quite a lot from this engine if it's to replace my 1.9td I'm so used to.

Thanks,
James

Post by **Peter.N.** » 16 Mar 2008, 13:41

I am also an advocate of the 2.1 engine. In my humble opinion it is the best IDI engine ever produced. Not only is it more powerful with huge ammounts of low down torque but it is also potentially more economical. I have had been running them in the XM estate for over 12 years now and driven with a reasonable ammount of restraint will top 50 mpg as against my wifes 1.9 ZX which only manages about 45 mpg, so should do even better in a Xantia. For ultimate reliability you could fit a mechanical pump in place of the EPIC, all my XMs have been mechanical.

There is another factor to consider that I don't think anyone has mentioned, and that's durability. The 2.1 engine is capable of 300 - 400 k miles if properly maintained, and is relatively cheap to repair if something does go wrong. The HDI on the other hand is more prone to serious and expensive problems - dual mass flywheel disintegration, high pressure fuel pump failure and injectors that cost around £500.00 to replace compared with about £25.00 for an XUD, and need programming to the ECU - not a DIY engine.

I am not saying that they all give trouble, but just have a look on 'Honest John's' forum and see what can happen, bearing in mind that Ford use the same engine.

nick · Post by **nick** » 16 Mar 2008, 16:55

Ford have only recently started using the HDi though. The original 2.0 TDCi's which are known to be troublesome are Ford's own engines with a Delphi fuel system. Not that closely related to the HDi, although PSA had some design input.
I wouldn't buy a Ford TDCi but quite happily own an HDi. They are far less problematic.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 16 Mar 2008, 19:05

Hi Nick

I see you already have one

As I said, I am not saying that they are all troublesome and I must admit tht most of the problems I have read about have been with Fords, but they all share the similar dual mass flywheels and have the propensity to give fuel injection problems, in fact the first lift pump, followed by high pressure pump failures were on Peugeots. They do seem to have sorted that one out now though. These problems seem to afflict all common rail engines to a greater or lesser degree and the greatest problem from my point of view is that you cant fix them yourself.