Xantia front suspension and steering problems

Post by **elma** » 22 Feb 2008, 17:06

I think I have a good idea whats going on here but some other points of view would be fairly helpful.

When I got my car 5 months ago I replaced almost every component which I thought could possibly be worn out but I've had a bit of an ongoing problem.

The steering wheel was about 10deg clockwise from center when the car was going straight ahead. After I replaced the track rod ends I had the tracking done and this was rectified. It then after a few weeks went back to where it was. I was fairly sure someone had hit the car but I'm not convinced anymore as the mark on the bumper was just a scratch.

Anyway I had the tracking done again. I watched the guy do it and it was spot on. I drove down the road and then the tracking felt wrong after about a mile. I went back and it had shifted itself and was 2deg out again. The steering wheel has gradually moved back to the clockwise from center position as well. I'm not getting any strange tyre wear though which is a bit puzzling.

I am sure its from the n/s as it's started to clonk going over speed bumps.
The only component not replaced 5 months ago on the suspension was the bottom ball joints (both sides).

I think it's a little more than that though, probably the p bush as well as it already looks partially torn. This doesn't explain the steering moving though, I'm wondering if this is the inner balljoint where the axial rod joins the steering rack. What I can't explain though is that I can't detect any play. I've tried it at all rideheights and wheel positions with each wheel jacked seperately and both together.

If anyones got any idea what else I should be looking at please let me know. Summers coming and this car was about to get cambelt, water pump, new turbo seals, exhaust and a few other bits. If I can't sort the steering though it's more likely to become a donar car.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 22 Feb 2008, 18:53

Sounds as though you are on the right track but its a bit concerning.

What are the strut tops like? As things seem to be moving I do wonder if they are rotten and bending a bit. Eventually you'll know whats wrong when they come through the bonnet.

Bottom ball joint wear should be detectable as should bush wear. The one that's very difficult to find is droplink wear but you may find that this is noticeable when one wheel is affected (as on a bump) but not when both ae affected as when both wheels hit a speedhump at the same time.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 22 Feb 2008, 18:58

Just a guess but my money's on a ball joint. I noticed that a worn ball joint can mask tracking faults and the actual amount of excess play in the joint was not so obvious when fitted. Only when the ball joint was removed and dismantled did we see just how bad it actually was!

My steering wheel has rotated 10-15 degrees anti-clockwise since replacing mine (n/s) and it's now obvious the tracking has excess toe-out. Before replacement, it wasn't obvious what the problem was, at low speed I would get clonking, while at speed the steering seemed a little vague/imprecise (and the steering wheel had perfect alignment then). Now, the steering is more precise but the car has a slight tendency to creep off to the right if not countered. I think the ball joint only cost about £8 from GSF so it's probably well worth doing, seeing as you've done just about everything else!

Post by **CitroJim** » 22 Feb 2008, 19:03

Indeed James, the steering rack does have inner balljoints and they do fail. They're a bit of a

to replace, especially on the PAS rack side. Do a search on here and full details will be revealed. They're usually found at MOT time.

The "P" bushes, especially as they're cracking up, will not be helping. They're cheap and not impossible to replace. You often have to cut them off carefully and then press on the new ones. It is VITAL the new "P" bushes go on with the correct alignment. OE ones have alignment dots but after-market ones often don't so make a particular note of how the old ones were orientated and put the new ones on in the same way. If you don't, the new ones won't last five minutes.

Replace the bushes on the other side of the wishbones whilst you are at it. It all makes a difference. Not a difficult job but a big vice and a big hammer or hydraulic press is necessary, along with a hacksaw. Be careful, if you do hacksaw the old bushes out, not to mark any part of the wishbone with the blade as this can dangerously weaken it by setting up a fatigue stress-riser on the wishbone. You don't want a wishbone to break on you.

As Jeremy says, check your strut tops. If they're starting to break up that could conceivably have an effect on the tracking.

Post by **elma** » 22 Feb 2008, 19:55

Thanks guys,

strut tops are good, I've replaced one of them already.
I've already replaced the p bushes on both sides so the wear on the n/s does signify a problem. I think a new lower arm would be the ideal solution, but unsure of the full cause of the problem I'm reluctant to spend cash on that just yet.

I will start with the BBJ on each side as I have these from 5 months ago. I didn't fit them because of previous disaster getting them pout of the hub on my old car. They are quality Delphi ones which I favour. I know it's hard to find movement on a BBJ as I've seen many a Xantia pass an mot with knackered ones.

Droplinks are good on my car, I'm very familier with the noise they make and I've sussed the tecnique for feeling play in them. (it's mid height setting and unweight the wheel with a jack, then you can feel the play)
I'm worried about the inner BJ on the steering rack though, when you say a bugger Jim how bad is it to do? I recall some people have changed the steering rack instead. Is there a way of feeling them for play? I've had a good go but found nothing so far.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 22 Feb 2008, 20:23

If you're going to be changing steering racks, can I have first refusal on the pinion valve?

Post by **CitroJim** » 22 Feb 2008, 21:36

elma wrote: I'm worried about the inner BJ on the steering rack though, when you say a bugger Jim how bad is it to do? I recall some people have changed the steering rack instead. Is there a way of feeling them for play? I've had a good go but found nothing so far.

I've not done one but read many accounts on here from very experienced people who have and if they say it's tricky then I'm more than happy to accept that it is

There are two problems as I understand it: Getting the rack gaiter off on the ram side of the rack (and replacing it) and undoing the balljoint retaining collar. There is a special tool for this but it seems that a good pair of "Stillsons" can be used. More a tool of the plumbing trade but very useful for particularly tricky automotive jobs. It is easier than changing the rack wholesale as I believe the subframe has to be dropped.

Play is easy to detect. Do as you'd do for a track rod end but rather than feel for play in the track rod end, feel for play between the track rod and the rack itself. If you can get movement which is not transmitted to the steering wheel and is not the outer track rod end then that is a sure sign it's an inner. A more sensitive test is to disconnect the track rod end from the steering arm on the hub and then push and pull on the track rod. Doing it like this takes the track rod end completely out of the equation and makes the detection of play a doddle.

You can also, if you know the outer track rod ends are perfect, feel it at the steering wheel by feeling for an arc of travel with is very light (as if the PAS was working) which suddenly gets heavy as the play is taken up as the steering wheel starts to turn the road wheels.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 22 Feb 2008, 22:37

My first thoughts are to check that the rack mounting isn't shifting somehow... or, subframe moving in relationship to the bodyshell. I don't know how thw Xantia racks are mounted - perhps 'U'bolts? Just a thought.

The steering wheel was about 10deg clockwise from center when the car was going straight ahead. After I replaced the track rod ends I had the tracking done and this was rectified. It then after a few weeks went back to where it was. I was fairly sure someone had hit the car but I'm not convinced anymore as the mark on the bumper was just a scratch.

Anyway I had the tracking done again. I watched the guy do it and it was spot on. I drove down the road and then the tracking felt wrong after about a mile. I went back and it had shifted itself and was 2deg out again. The steering wheel has gradually moved back to the clockwise from center position as well. I'm not getting any strange tyre wear though which is a bit puzzling.

Post by **elma** » 22 Feb 2008, 23:36

Sorry but I won't be changing any steering racks, the pinion valve won't be up for grabs.

I'll have a good fiddle tomorrow.

If I think the Inner joint is gone there will probably be a cheap car with 6 months mot on the forum soon.

Post by **elma** » 23 Feb 2008, 18:57

Well 10 points to everyone who said strut top.
Although it looked fine with a quick look there was a pinhole of air visible when looked at closely.
Upon inspection with a screwdriver a gaping hole appeared.
Glad I caught it in time.

First move is new strut top, I'm going to take them both off though and give the other one a good de rust and hammerite. It passed the screwdriver test, but w/o treatment will only be a matter of time.

Second move tracking and see what happens after.
I will probably end up doing ball joints as well because they should be done, along with that bush. But that'll be on a sunny day.

Only problem is the strut top is in Swansea, thats not definate though just probable. I can't find one in Cardiff. Having trouble borrowing wheels for tomorrow so it could be a bit of hassle getting one.

Hopefully my friend will fix his car, it's not pumping fuel even though it's had a new fuel pump. I reckon his inertia switch is in the off position but he's not very motivated to fix it at the minute. I'm not going on public transport either as I'm a bit of a snob.

Don't suppose anyone in Cardiff has a spare n/s strut top I could grab tomorrow? I'm willing to pay or trade bits.

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 23 Feb 2008, 21:16

Obviously, it pays to be thorough, especially regarding that particular fault, well caught! Out of interest, which side is it that's rotten?

Post by **elma** » 23 Feb 2008, 22:00

Near side, I already replaced the offside though it wasn't as bad as this one.
Interestingly on the N/s the rust held together really well, you would never have known by visual inspection alone, whereas the o/s showed its hole as soon as I started driving the car.

Post by **elma** » 24 Feb 2008, 13:25

Oh no, I'm an idiot.
Had a few drinks last night and overslept,
no chance of getting a part from a scrapyard today now.
Will have to wait until tomorrow or wednesday when I can fit it in around uni.
Serves me right really.

Post by **CitroJim** » 24 Feb 2008, 18:29

elma wrote:Oh no, I'm an idiot.
Had a few drinks last night and overslept.

We've all been there James. It'll be the bus tomorrow then, you don't want to drive the car with a dodgy strut top unless of course pyramid-shaped bonnets are something you particularly desire

So the bright side, as you know already, the strut top is a doddle to replace

Post by **elma** » 25 Feb 2008, 10:39

Well it chucked it down yesterday so I wouldn't have done work on the strut top anyway because of the hydraulics being exposed to water.

Shame it's lovely today but I have uni to do so will have to wait until wednesday to get me a strut top.

I shant be going near a bus though, I'd rather walk, bike and skate than wait.