Hello, been redirected from citroenz.
Have a bit problematic xantia, and my findings are:
if car stays undriven for 2 days or more its starts poorly, less than that, no problem.
Untill it warms up it smokes quite a bit even at low rpm, can see it in mirror.
When warm, it smokes under heavier acceleration.
It seems like a mix of black and blue smoke.
Oil consumption is present, probably 3l/10.000 k's.
Car has catalysator.
Rev counter doesnt work.
When bought used, it was all fine for few 1000 k's until towing smaller trailor uphill for prolongued time with a bit higher revs.
It began overheating up to 100°C, so I pulled over.
Fans were rotating at very high speed.
Since then, car became more and more temp sensitive to uphill and faster riding (above 90kph)
Sometimes can do 140 without problem.
Overall power seemed low, so I disconnected air sensor and it seemed like improved overall power.
Smoking still present. Fans always cut in little above 80°C.
Fuel consumption seems high, but only comparing to previous BX td.
Have an average of 7l/100 k's, mostly riding very easy..in that state, bx used 5 l/100.
Also temporary removed thermostat, car heats up slower and cools faster so now I get less overheating, for which I mean anything above 80°C.
Cooler weather also helps, it heated more in hot summer days.
Was adviced to vent the cooling system and check radiator for clogging; rad. was replaced new in near past, system free from air.
Also was adviced to check pump timing, mech said OK on that one.
Reading through forums, can speculate about faulty eletronics and car working on secondary system.
Would plugging the car to diagnostic comp. reveal the problem with regard to given data?
Also anything else advisable?
Othervise, if ridden with care, except for the occasional smoking, it works fine, untill temp rises, which now is less frequent due to cooler weather and thermostat removed, but those are only temporary solutions.
When I install thermostat, it will heat up faster and also rise above 80 degrees faster, when ridden faster or uphill.
Car k's are 160.000 but probably closer to 300.000 or more, import car.
Regards, Denis
Xantia TD '95, overheat, smoke, bad start
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MikeT
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Re: Xantia TD '95, overheat, smoke, bad start
Hi Denis, just my unprofessional opinion; but if the car overheated I think there's a high possibility of head gasket failure and cylinder head damage. Maybe other problems too but worth getting some tests done to eliminate this as any other work paid for may be money wasted. As the car seems pretty much driveable it may be just the gasket needs replacing at reasonable cost but if you drive on a damage gasket I think you're risking a big part of your income!Denis wrote:Hello, been redirected from citroenz.
It began overheating up to 100°C, so I pulled over.
Regards, Denis
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MikeT
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I could be wrong but I think the head gasket is the weakest link in an otherwise very strong and reliable engine and given you told of oil loss (I have used none in over 3000 miles) you might want some tests done.
Pulling the codes from the ECU would be a good first step otherwise.
What I do know is that overfuelling can cause excessive smoke along with higher temperatures.
Poor cold starts could be glow plugs. If it's a bosch fuel pump, there may be air drawn in through the leak off pipes,
Sorry I don't have enough experience yet to offer more suggestions.
Pulling the codes from the ECU would be a good first step otherwise.
What I do know is that overfuelling can cause excessive smoke along with higher temperatures.
Poor cold starts could be glow plugs. If it's a bosch fuel pump, there may be air drawn in through the leak off pipes,
Sorry I don't have enough experience yet to offer more suggestions.
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Peter.N.
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If yours is a '95, I doubt it will have an ECU but will be one of the more reliable mechanical injection variety. Overheating very often does cause head gasket failure and also head cracking but it normally has to boil for this to happen and if you are not loosing water its unlikely to be the problem.
Your starting problem could be due to air entering the system, have you changed the fuel filter lately? because that will also cause poor performance if blocked, Check all the fuel line connections and also the leak off pipes if it has a Bosch pump.
Overheating is nearly always due to a blocked or furred up radiator, you have eliminated the thermostat so that's about all thats all really thats left. Over fuelling will cause it to overheat but it would have to be very overfueled, resulting in continious black smoke.
Your starting problem could be due to air entering the system, have you changed the fuel filter lately? because that will also cause poor performance if blocked, Check all the fuel line connections and also the leak off pipes if it has a Bosch pump.
Overheating is nearly always due to a blocked or furred up radiator, you have eliminated the thermostat so that's about all thats all really thats left. Over fuelling will cause it to overheat but it would have to be very overfueled, resulting in continious black smoke.
Hello
Car has very good cold starts, even in winter.
Problem only occurs if it doesnt run for 2 or more days, than it needs more cranking and throtthling and eventually starts.
I've changed fuel filter 3000k ago, also oil filter (some said that non original oil filter doesnt have enough flow, thus lack of oil in head, overheating)
crazy explanations, but cheap to verify.
Radiator has no cold spots, but intend to remove and flush it, but this is not an answer for smoking.
Can the fouled lambda sond reprezent itself in that behaviour, smoking, heat?
Pump is a bit leaky on top (at throtthle lever spring), thats about 1000k's after engine cleaning with pressure, when replaced head cap gasket.
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
Ill check leak off pipes after i locate them.
Here are some pics, do they point to ECU?
comp. connector
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
air sensor?
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
cat.
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
Regards, Denis
Car has very good cold starts, even in winter.
Problem only occurs if it doesnt run for 2 or more days, than it needs more cranking and throtthling and eventually starts.
I've changed fuel filter 3000k ago, also oil filter (some said that non original oil filter doesnt have enough flow, thus lack of oil in head, overheating)
crazy explanations, but cheap to verify.
Radiator has no cold spots, but intend to remove and flush it, but this is not an answer for smoking.
Can the fouled lambda sond reprezent itself in that behaviour, smoking, heat?
Pump is a bit leaky on top (at throtthle lever spring), thats about 1000k's after engine cleaning with pressure, when replaced head cap gasket.
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
Ill check leak off pipes after i locate them.
Here are some pics, do they point to ECU?
comp. connector
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
air sensor?
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
cat.
http://www.motosvet.com/album/images/20 ... resize.jpg
Regards, Denis
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Peter.N.
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In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars. - x 1206
Problems with starting after a period with no use would point to an air leak in the fuel system allowing the fuel to drain back to the tank. If it has a primer bulb in the fuel line, try priming it with that before you start, if it then starts OK its air.
Smoke if its black would point to excessive fuel or not enought air which ammounts to the same thing. Check the air intake trunking for collapse or damage and check the air filter unless you have changed it recently.
Smoke if its black would point to excessive fuel or not enought air which ammounts to the same thing. Check the air intake trunking for collapse or damage and check the air filter unless you have changed it recently.
Hello
Been to autoshop, 95 doesnt have lambda, it has nonregulated cleaning of exhaust, dont know if it can affect running.
If by primer bulb you mean the rubber pump that fills fuel filter, I think it helps starting the car, so there should be leak.
I had problems with sucking the pump together, there was partial vacuum in the system because dirt from the tank filled strainer, so fuel flow and top rpm was limited.
Had that cleaned, car able to rev again, smoking remained.
Maybe clogged lines forced the pump to search alternative supply and weakest link, maybe seal on the pump gave up.
Just presume.
Cant really define the smoke colour when accelerating with warmed up car, its hard through greenish windows, but in low gears it sure is black, high gears mean more speed and better disperse of the smoke so it seems more whitish.
Example how car heats up:
if accelerating easy, it doesnt heat up, stays on 80°C even at 140 kph, but when passing the toll, 2nd gear and accelerate with full turbo, it rises to 90 and stays there no matter the speed.
If it was uphill, it would tend to rise to 95, 100 if persisted on throtthle.
Even worse with trailer pulling.
With thermostat, all this would happen even sooner, because it keeps temp at 80, but cant manage higher temps.
Previous bx tzd made absolutely no fuss, on which I rarely even heard fans.
Leak off pipes are those that are fitted to injectors to flow off excess fuell?
Regards Denis
Been to autoshop, 95 doesnt have lambda, it has nonregulated cleaning of exhaust, dont know if it can affect running.
If by primer bulb you mean the rubber pump that fills fuel filter, I think it helps starting the car, so there should be leak.
I had problems with sucking the pump together, there was partial vacuum in the system because dirt from the tank filled strainer, so fuel flow and top rpm was limited.
Had that cleaned, car able to rev again, smoking remained.
Maybe clogged lines forced the pump to search alternative supply and weakest link, maybe seal on the pump gave up.
Just presume.
Cant really define the smoke colour when accelerating with warmed up car, its hard through greenish windows, but in low gears it sure is black, high gears mean more speed and better disperse of the smoke so it seems more whitish.
Example how car heats up:
if accelerating easy, it doesnt heat up, stays on 80°C even at 140 kph, but when passing the toll, 2nd gear and accelerate with full turbo, it rises to 90 and stays there no matter the speed.
If it was uphill, it would tend to rise to 95, 100 if persisted on throtthle.
Even worse with trailer pulling.
With thermostat, all this would happen even sooner, because it keeps temp at 80, but cant manage higher temps.
Previous bx tzd made absolutely no fuss, on which I rarely even heard fans.
Leak off pipes are those that are fitted to injectors to flow off excess fuell?
Regards Denis
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CitroJim
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Hi Denis,
A very interesting set of problems
They may be interlinked.
Firstly, as Peter says, the Head Gasket will not be the problem but it is not good for its health for the engine to be running very hot all the time.
Taking your problems in turn. If you have trouble in starting after a 2 day rest then air is entering the system and as your pump is a bit damp at the top, I'd suspect the throttle spindle O ring has gone hard and allowing a little fuel to escape and a little air to get in to the system when stopped. It's a biggie to replace this so I'd live with it until the leak becomes a bad one. Do check the integrity of your leakoff pipes (small pipes daisy-chained between injectors and back to the pump) and replace if in any doubt whatsoever.
TDs should not overheat like yours, especially with a new radiator. I tow a 1 ton caravan with mine and struggle to get it above 90 degrees even when towing hard uphill in the heat of summer.
The overheating may just be the water pump. There are three different types of waterpump for the XU engine family and they all fit the XUD but one is very wrong even though it fits; that is the one designed for the alloy blocked XU engine. The impeller is too small and does not fit the housing correctly and thus reduces pumping efficiency. Also, use a pump with a cast impeller rather than a pressed steel one. They work better. The overheating may be caused by your smoking and high fuel consumption problem as well.
My first suspect here is timing. I suspect it is a little retarded. Check again the timing as it is very critical. Only half a tooth out can cause the problems you have. Make sure, when checking, that you lock the crankshaft using the flywheel timing hole and ensure the timing pins align precisely with their holes on both the camshaft and pump sprockets. I cannot state strongly enough just how critical this is, particularly on a fully mechanical pump like yours where there is no electronics to fine-tune it.
Check too your cold advance is working properly. On the front of the pump is a small solenoid. Check for 12v here when the engine is cold. There should be 0V here when the engine coolant is above 60 degrees.
A long-shot but I'm wondering too if your cat is totally clogged up and causing excessive back-pressure in the system. If a cat is not a legal requirement in Slovenia on a diesel (it is not in the UK), then bypass it. The backbox, if clogged, can also cause problems.
Let us know how it goes
A very interesting set of problems
They may be interlinked.Firstly, as Peter says, the Head Gasket will not be the problem but it is not good for its health for the engine to be running very hot all the time.
Taking your problems in turn. If you have trouble in starting after a 2 day rest then air is entering the system and as your pump is a bit damp at the top, I'd suspect the throttle spindle O ring has gone hard and allowing a little fuel to escape and a little air to get in to the system when stopped. It's a biggie to replace this so I'd live with it until the leak becomes a bad one. Do check the integrity of your leakoff pipes (small pipes daisy-chained between injectors and back to the pump) and replace if in any doubt whatsoever.
TDs should not overheat like yours, especially with a new radiator. I tow a 1 ton caravan with mine and struggle to get it above 90 degrees even when towing hard uphill in the heat of summer.
The overheating may just be the water pump. There are three different types of waterpump for the XU engine family and they all fit the XUD but one is very wrong even though it fits; that is the one designed for the alloy blocked XU engine. The impeller is too small and does not fit the housing correctly and thus reduces pumping efficiency. Also, use a pump with a cast impeller rather than a pressed steel one. They work better. The overheating may be caused by your smoking and high fuel consumption problem as well.
My first suspect here is timing. I suspect it is a little retarded. Check again the timing as it is very critical. Only half a tooth out can cause the problems you have. Make sure, when checking, that you lock the crankshaft using the flywheel timing hole and ensure the timing pins align precisely with their holes on both the camshaft and pump sprockets. I cannot state strongly enough just how critical this is, particularly on a fully mechanical pump like yours where there is no electronics to fine-tune it.
Check too your cold advance is working properly. On the front of the pump is a small solenoid. Check for 12v here when the engine is cold. There should be 0V here when the engine coolant is above 60 degrees.
A long-shot but I'm wondering too if your cat is totally clogged up and causing excessive back-pressure in the system. If a cat is not a legal requirement in Slovenia on a diesel (it is not in the UK), then bypass it. The backbox, if clogged, can also cause problems.
Let us know how it goes
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Hello
Also very helpful set of answers.
What ive done to the car in recent past is fuel, oil and air filter renew to exclude marginal causes.
Also replaced timing belt with 2 tensioners and water pump when bought the car.
(now you made me think about the pump)
I did take the picture of the pump, but not on the impeler side. This pump was said not to be correct, so i returned it and mech got new one, from which I have no pic.
I dont recall impeller diffrence, but housing was a bit diffrent, I believe it didnt have the belt protector.
This is friends X2 1.9TD break-> water pump, old and new.
The same model that didnt fit mine was Ok for him and gave him no problems. (I believe it would fit mine, but didnt pay enough attention then)
If I manage the picture of the one Ive got currently installed, would you try to distinguish if its correct?
If leaky throtthle spindle is the lever pulled by throtthle cable, than it seems a bit leaky lever
Checked leakoff pipes and they are in perfect shape. No sign of aging, shiny black tubes with no outer damage.
Timing will have to be checked again at the mech as i am not qualified for this.
Cold advance will check. -this is probably diesel choke.
Ill check for cat neccessity, if not, it will fly off.
Could you tell me what this is, if a car is mechanicly controlled.
Disconnecting it improved performance, but very slightly.
Not sure what backbox is, probably muffler.
About timing check.
I need to be able to tell my mech exactly what to do, but than i need to understand it too.
I thought timing consisted only of correct timing belt positioning, which he guranteed, it was OK.
And since he has a bulletproof type of belt replacement (with white marker lining on every teethed wheel ad belt), he was sure, he did timing correctly as pet tooth.
But doublecheck is doable.
All for now.
Regards Denis
Also very helpful set of answers.
What ive done to the car in recent past is fuel, oil and air filter renew to exclude marginal causes.
Also replaced timing belt with 2 tensioners and water pump when bought the car.
(now you made me think about the pump)
I did take the picture of the pump, but not on the impeler side. This pump was said not to be correct, so i returned it and mech got new one, from which I have no pic.
I dont recall impeller diffrence, but housing was a bit diffrent, I believe it didnt have the belt protector.
This is friends X2 1.9TD break-> water pump, old and new.
The same model that didnt fit mine was Ok for him and gave him no problems. (I believe it would fit mine, but didnt pay enough attention then)
If I manage the picture of the one Ive got currently installed, would you try to distinguish if its correct?
If leaky throtthle spindle is the lever pulled by throtthle cable, than it seems a bit leaky lever
Checked leakoff pipes and they are in perfect shape. No sign of aging, shiny black tubes with no outer damage.
Timing will have to be checked again at the mech as i am not qualified for this.
Cold advance will check. -this is probably diesel choke.
Ill check for cat neccessity, if not, it will fly off.
Could you tell me what this is, if a car is mechanicly controlled.
Disconnecting it improved performance, but very slightly.
Not sure what backbox is, probably muffler.
About timing check.
I need to be able to tell my mech exactly what to do, but than i need to understand it too.
I thought timing consisted only of correct timing belt positioning, which he guranteed, it was OK.
And since he has a bulletproof type of belt replacement (with white marker lining on every teethed wheel ad belt), he was sure, he did timing correctly as pet tooth.
But doublecheck is doable.
All for now.
Regards Denis
Hello
Been to autoparts store, checking for water pumps.
First store had 3 diffrent pumps for this car, of which 2 impeller sizes:
68,5mm (2,6969 in) and 70,5mm (2,9528 in)
second store, 2 pumps, 2 sizes: 69mm (2,7165 in) and 71,5mm (2,8150 in)
I think I have the 69mm (2,7165 in) pump installed.
Comparing all pumps, it is rather small size diffrence.
Regards Denis
Been to autoparts store, checking for water pumps.
First store had 3 diffrent pumps for this car, of which 2 impeller sizes:
68,5mm (2,6969 in) and 70,5mm (2,9528 in)
second store, 2 pumps, 2 sizes: 69mm (2,7165 in) and 71,5mm (2,8150 in)
I think I have the 69mm (2,7165 in) pump installed.
Comparing all pumps, it is rather small size diffrence.
Regards Denis
Hello
Today replaced 69mm water pump with 71mm.
Doing this, had time to stick bolts in bosch pump, cam shaft and crank shaft timing holes and it all fit perfectly phazed.
Also removed radiator for flushing and it was brand new inside, no smudge at all, nevertheless cleaned it.
Cleaned all 3 radiators from outside with wap.
Cut open the calalysator on top, removed all the comb.
Was a bit clogged.
Installed new thermostat.
Refilled coolant and vented the system 100%.
Checked choke, saw no solenoid, just a wire pulled behind pump, mechanical choke. It works.
Noticed, that when pressing the priming pump, small leak occurring on top of the bosch pump (under throtthle lever). That probably also means air sucked inside.
Started car, waited to heat up and checked ventilator startup temp.
It did its job at about 89°C.
Did a high speed 15 k's run with whatever that is connected and 15 k's run disconnected.
Car reaching 160kms, above that would need longer straight.
Top speed producing 90°C engine heat.
Slowing down to 100kms dropped heat to 82°.
Returned to garage, checked coolant level, car was at least at 80°, unwound the coolant filler cap, didnt even hiss, level as should be.
To make it short:
water pump the biggest size available- alloy cast, radiator clean, system free of air, air pass cleaned.
Exhaust uncorked.
Timing checked.
Bosch pump a bit leaky.
Oil consumption present.
Overheating present.
Black smoke present when cold and when under acceleration, but after a longer high rpm riding, much less.
Spinnig turbo is now more audible, probably due to freed exhaust.
Next?
What is sensor in the ECU housing, are injectors OK, is pump Ok.
For the end, mech said it was normal for such heat to occur.
I think its not.
Regards Denis
Today replaced 69mm water pump with 71mm.
Doing this, had time to stick bolts in bosch pump, cam shaft and crank shaft timing holes and it all fit perfectly phazed.
Also removed radiator for flushing and it was brand new inside, no smudge at all, nevertheless cleaned it.
Cleaned all 3 radiators from outside with wap.
Cut open the calalysator on top, removed all the comb.
Was a bit clogged.
Installed new thermostat.
Refilled coolant and vented the system 100%.
Checked choke, saw no solenoid, just a wire pulled behind pump, mechanical choke. It works.
Noticed, that when pressing the priming pump, small leak occurring on top of the bosch pump (under throtthle lever). That probably also means air sucked inside.
Started car, waited to heat up and checked ventilator startup temp.
It did its job at about 89°C.
Did a high speed 15 k's run with whatever that is connected and 15 k's run disconnected.
Car reaching 160kms, above that would need longer straight.
Top speed producing 90°C engine heat.
Slowing down to 100kms dropped heat to 82°.
Returned to garage, checked coolant level, car was at least at 80°, unwound the coolant filler cap, didnt even hiss, level as should be.
To make it short:
water pump the biggest size available- alloy cast, radiator clean, system free of air, air pass cleaned.
Exhaust uncorked.
Timing checked.
Bosch pump a bit leaky.
Oil consumption present.
Overheating present.
Black smoke present when cold and when under acceleration, but after a longer high rpm riding, much less.
Spinnig turbo is now more audible, probably due to freed exhaust.
Next?
What is sensor in the ECU housing, are injectors OK, is pump Ok.
For the end, mech said it was normal for such heat to occur.
I think its not.
Regards Denis
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MikeT
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The component in the ECU housing may be the atmospheric pressure sensor? It regulates timing according to altitude.
With excess (fuel) smoke, you're probably producing excess heat - mine does. I've backed off the fuelling so much that I can't produce clouds of smoke anymore and the engine takes longer to warm up.
With excess (fuel) smoke, you're probably producing excess heat - mine does. I've backed off the fuelling so much that I can't produce clouds of smoke anymore and the engine takes longer to warm up.