HDI cold start hell.... CASE SOLVED

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 10 May 2007, 15:01

Hi all
I have HDI hell in my '99 406. Please someone save me from this "trying car".
Sympton:
No error ecu warnings. When cold car will not start, just turns over until battery is dead.
It still does not start continuing with jump leads. Only way to start it is bump/tow starting
which works quite easy considering. Its been on the computer and fault codes are

P0115 engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor - circuit malfunction
P0380 Glow plugs, circuit A - malfunction

I have replaced the engine fuel stop switch, the glow plugs (NGK Y504J), preheat relay box and the water
temperature sensor. All fitted with battery disconnected, all fittings cleaned.

The battery and alternator has been tested and passed. The glow plugs and interconnecting rail
has also been tested to check power is getting all along it. The fuel pipes above the injectors
have been undone to check fuel is pumping.

After all this it still does not start except for bump starting. Once engine is warm
it will start off the key. The same error codes appear, any ideas? anyone? Maybe a fuse
or relay in 1 of the fuse boxes??

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 10 May 2007, 15:19

does it pump smoke out of the back of the car, if so what color, sounds like its either a duff glow plug or wrong sort, or it might be that air is leaking into the system over night.

But id place bets on it being a glow plug issue.

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 10 May 2007, 15:32

It only smokes a bit after bump starting, a blue colour.
It has a full set of brand new plugs which are the correct ones.
Has to be a electrical fault on the ignition circuit cos those fault codes dont go away, but where is the fault...???

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 May 2007, 19:41

Get some answers instead of blind going on parts replacing

Check glowplug circuit continuity :
Check the voltage on the glowplugs using a standard cheapo hobby multimeter. Have one meter probe on the glowplug distributor cable, the other meter probe to engine earth (engine ground).
Might be advantageous using securely clamped meter cables instead of meter probes.
Be sure you have a good connection to engine earth, i.e. rub down the area to make it clean. Important : Do not connect the meter probes/cables anywhere else, or you might get a false reading.
Then try a start and read the voltage. Must be at least 11V during starting.

The blue tint smoke would indicate unburnt fuel burning off initially when engine is started. This also supports TehAgent's theory on a glowplug issue some kind - on which I agree totally.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 10 May 2007, 21:56

Every website I've been to with that code (P0380 Glow plugs, circuit A - malfunction) says its a bad or defective glow plug.

Id say test the glow plugs...

Brian UK · Post by **Brian UK** » 10 May 2007, 23:18

Problem is that the HDI, being a direct injection engine, almost never uses the glow plugs. In extremely cold weather they might come on for half a second.

Post by **RichardW** » 11 May 2007, 08:30

Yes, I'm with you Brian - as this is a direct injection engine it should start within a few seconds even without any plugs - even an XUD will start in < 1min without plugs this sort of weather. However, the fact that it will start on a tow, but then gives a bit of smoke, coupled with the CTS fault code leads me to believe that it may have lost contact with the CTS (or the CTS has failed open), and it's gone into hot start mode, so you're not getting any plugs, and not getting any advance on the injection. Hence, the starter is just not turning it over fast enough, but a tow will.

Don't forget also that the HDi is infamous for failure of the low pressure fuel pump, and the fuel rail pressure sensor, either of which can give random non-start situations.

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 13 May 2007, 07:43

A bit of an update.
The "P0115 engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor - circuit malfunction"
error has vanished but the other one remains. I pulled off the preheat box and noticed it is different to the one supplied. My original one has 2 round terminals and a socket for a cable. The socket has 4 pins but 5 pin layout if that makes any sense, like this:

1 2 3 4 5
_ # _ _ _

number 2 isnt there, manufactured that way.In the new preheat box it is there. I have replaced this part before and never been given a 5 pin box. They are also different in size and part numbers and yet peugeot say that it is on there computer as the right box. There head mechanic claims he's never seen a 4 pin box for my car. The funny thing is the past 2 or 3 preheat boxes ive bought have been from there shop and they have worked. Is this maindealer just trying to get my car in the garage to rape my wallet?? Surely a 5pin box is electrically different to a 4pin box??

nurkov · Post by **nurkov** » 13 May 2007, 10:07

can you write that part number you've been given and your vin number?

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 14 May 2007, 13:58

Its ok i got the right part now it seems since John Grose has taken over my pug garage they have re-written the parts catologue and im not the only one who has had probs in recieving the right part. However the fault code still remains, im now waiting for the car to go cold.Will post result tomorrow.

If there is still a prob:
On a wiring diagram pin 1 on the glowplug relay goes to the vehicle speed sensor. Being as the car is a taxi it has a meter fitted which i think taps into this circuit. Could it be bad wiring or interferring with this ciruit be the reason why im on my 4th glowplug relay in 2 years?? Where is the VSS??

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 14 May 2007, 19:08

Dam thing didnt even make it to the next day, just tried it and still no go.

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 15 May 2007, 09:45

Hi Jimmyboy I agree with the other replies I have seen.

Jimmyboy wrote:

If there is still a prob:
On a wiring diagram pin 1 on the glowplug relay goes to the vehicle speed sensor. Being as the car is a taxi it has a meter fitted which i think taps into this circuit. Could it be bad wiring or interferring with this ciruit be the reason why im on my 4th glowplug relay in 2 years?? Where is the VSS??

Although reading the paragraph I have quoted above, I then have to ask the questions below.

So, when was the meter fitted, and have these problems only been happening since the fitment ?

Also have you checked the quality of the installation, and not only the wiring connections, but also the mountings etc ?

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 15 May 2007, 15:40

Meter was fitted shortly after i got the car.If i remember the car went wrong soon after that with preheat,water sensor,camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor.After the mechanic replaced them i only had preheat go wrong every 7 months roughly but car ran fine. Not really able to check the quality of installation cos its concealed.

On another note i got a haynes manual and in chapter 5 part C , part 1, 4th paragraph it says:

With the electronically-controlled diesel injection systems fitted models in this manual, the glowplug control unit is controlled by the injection system ECU, which determines the necessary preheating time based on inputs from the various system ssensors. The system monitors the temperature of the air in the engine bay by an air temperature sensor, then alters the preheating time to suit the conditions.

Could the air temp sensor be it being as it just dont wanna play ball when the engine is cold? Has peugeot messed the ignition circuit up by giving me the wrong preheat??

Brian UK · Post by **Brian UK** » 16 May 2007, 22:57

Since, 99 times out of 100, the engine needs no preheat, then I doubt this is the real problem.
There is certainly something else involved, as no-one else seems to have had any problem with the glow plug control, certainly not every few months.
Also yours is not the only one of these to be used as a taxi. If this fault were so common, no-one would use them for taxis as they would be too unreliable.

Jimmyboy · Post by **Jimmyboy** » 17 May 2007, 12:37

CASE SOLVED
The water coolant sensor and glowplug relay was faulty but the final piece of the jigsaw puzzle which did not show up independantly was........

CRANKSHAFT SENSOR

Now the P0380 glowplug relay/circuit error has gone and car starts cold on the key. I thought this sensor had its own error code? I found out by using a multimeter on the ECM harness joining pins 14 and 41.

Thanks for the help and tips. I would highly recomend Autodata prog to anyone.