My car made it back from our weeks holiday without dying,
The noise is still there, it hasnt got any noisier or quieter, but it is definatly related to engine speed and not car speed as it even happens on idle when revving the engine
I have worked out that the noise is once per second at 2100 rpm, which makes it out to be 33 times slower than the engine speed
Is there anything turning about 33 times slower than the crank speed of the engine ?, I know the oil pump is chain driven, but does it have reduction gearing too ?, maybe its an oil pump problem ?
I also get the check engine light on at tickever randomly, and this goes away 99% of the time when the revs get over 2000 rpm, could this have anything to do with the noise possibly ?
If anyone has any other ideas I would appreciate a reply
Other than the engine noise, and the dissapointing fuel consumption it is returning (abot 22mpg), it is a wonderful car with the most powerfull air con i have ever had in a car !, it is very quiet at speed, very comfortable, and we have just fitted 2 x 7" screens in the back along with a dvd player to keep the kids happy on long journeys, and i have a DVB-T freeview tuner on order as well to go with it so they can watch cbeebies whilst we are driving !!
cheers
Doh!, the noise wasnt the water pump or cam belt idler beari
Moderator: RichardW
The oil pump has something like a 1:5 ratio. Its chain driven directly off the crank.
Still not pinpointed exactly the location ?
The synergie is not exactly a lightweight car - and the 2.0L engine will need its food for power. The a/c will take some 8Bhp from the engine - constantly in this heatwave we have.
Warning : lame question ahead.
Warning : lame question coming Up.
Warning : lame question : Have you tried run the engine with a/c shutted off ?
It is in fact possible to survive a couple of minutes in the car no a/c - long enough to detect any changes on the noise ...
Still not pinpointed exactly the location ?
The synergie is not exactly a lightweight car - and the 2.0L engine will need its food for power. The a/c will take some 8Bhp from the engine - constantly in this heatwave we have.
Warning : lame question ahead.
Warning : lame question coming Up.
Warning : lame question : Have you tried run the engine with a/c shutted off ?
It is in fact possible to survive a couple of minutes in the car no a/c - long enough to detect any changes on the noise ...
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Doh!, so that rules out the oil pump then really 
Lol !!, Yes, i have tried the car without the air con on, and i dont think i could survive even a few minutes with the air con off if i was in the car !!!
, I have actually removed the aux belt so the air con pump, alternator, powersteering pump and the aux belt tensioner were all out of the loop, I even drove the car forward about 3 metres with the intention of driving it round the block until i realised you needed to have elephant muscles to move the steering when the power steering pump isnt running !!
I'm at a total loss as the where the noise is comming from now, its definitly noisy at the crankshaft end of the sum with some vibration accompanying the noise, but I would have expected the shells to have failed or at least be knocking by now if it was the crankshaft bearings failing, I drove 900 miles last week on holiday and the noise has only got slightly louder since then
Could the noise be travelling down the crankshaft maybe ?, is there a sort of idler shaft in the gearbox that is always turning at crankshaft speed maybe ?, that would have ball or needle bearings and it definitly sounds like a ball bearing failing type noise to me, I have even changed the gearbox oil and added some molyslip gearbox additive that claims to quieten noisy gearboxes, and it had no effect at all on the noise !!
I have thought of a way to improve the MPG now, and will be fitting an LPG kit to it, that should give me the equivalent of about 38mpg then, which is far more acceptable !!
Lol !!, Yes, i have tried the car without the air con on, and i dont think i could survive even a few minutes with the air con off if i was in the car !!!
, I have actually removed the aux belt so the air con pump, alternator, powersteering pump and the aux belt tensioner were all out of the loop, I even drove the car forward about 3 metres with the intention of driving it round the block until i realised you needed to have elephant muscles to move the steering when the power steering pump isnt running !!I'm at a total loss as the where the noise is comming from now, its definitly noisy at the crankshaft end of the sum with some vibration accompanying the noise, but I would have expected the shells to have failed or at least be knocking by now if it was the crankshaft bearings failing, I drove 900 miles last week on holiday and the noise has only got slightly louder since then
Could the noise be travelling down the crankshaft maybe ?, is there a sort of idler shaft in the gearbox that is always turning at crankshaft speed maybe ?, that would have ball or needle bearings and it definitly sounds like a ball bearing failing type noise to me, I have even changed the gearbox oil and added some molyslip gearbox additive that claims to quieten noisy gearboxes, and it had no effect at all on the noise !!
I have thought of a way to improve the MPG now, and will be fitting an LPG kit to it, that should give me the equivalent of about 38mpg then, which is far more acceptable !!
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
When you say "the crankshaft end of sump" -
Then you actually mean "the crankshaft PULLEY end of the sump" -
Right ?
I fear then that it could be the pulley itself breaking up - not unheard of the XU10 engines. The test is like the old days when the railway man went down the train tapping on the wheels with a hammer. He was listening for a duff sound from the steel - instead of the normal crispy steel sound.
Indicating a crack in the steel.
Then you actually mean "the crankshaft PULLEY end of the sump" -
Right ?
I fear then that it could be the pulley itself breaking up - not unheard of the XU10 engines. The test is like the old days when the railway man went down the train tapping on the wheels with a hammer. He was listening for a duff sound from the steel - instead of the normal crispy steel sound.
Indicating a crack in the steel.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Sorry, yes i did mean the crankshaft pulley end,
Do you mean the pulley that drives the aux belt ?, or the next one in that is toothed and drives the cambelt ?, I inspected the aux drivebelt pulley carefully on both sides and it looked fine, I even drew a tippex line across the pulley and crankshaft bolt and it is still exactly where i drew it (outer part not rotating around the center part)
But maybe i should try a new pulley to see if that cures it ?, the noise is comming from that end
Do you mean the pulley that drives the aux belt ?, or the next one in that is toothed and drives the cambelt ?, I inspected the aux drivebelt pulley carefully on both sides and it looked fine, I even drew a tippex line across the pulley and crankshaft bolt and it is still exactly where i drew it (outer part not rotating around the center part)
But maybe i should try a new pulley to see if that cures it ?, the noise is comming from that end
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Is there any noticable axial play in the crankshaft indicating worn thrust bearings? (sometimes it can be seen when the clutch is depressed)
The thrust bearings are usually plain semi-circular half-washers fitted either side of the centre main bearing journal . . .
just an idea . .
//NiSk
The thrust bearings are usually plain semi-circular half-washers fitted either side of the centre main bearing journal . . .
just an idea . .
//NiSk
'85 BX 16TRS, '91 XM injection 241,000 km (company car), '93 XM TD12 (515,000 km), '98 XM 2.5TD Break (320,000 km)
Your knock every 33 revs sounds interesting.
I wonder - if its cam belt related. Goes like this: The important relationship is the number of teeth on the pinions - so x teeth on the crankshaft pulley, 2X on the camshaft and injector pump - as they revolve at half engine speed. Tensioners and water pump are not required to be precise.
The number of teeth on the cambelt does not matter and so its arranged to be a strange figure so that it gently progresses as the engine revolves - so that it runs on different teeth which reduces the establishment of wear patterns.
When I say strange I mean strange - like 141 teeth if your engine is a 2.0 HDi An XUD has 136 teeth and 21 teeth on the creankshaft pulley (If I've counted correctly from the Haynes picture)
Now how many times does the (engine) revolve before a cam belt tooth meets an engine pulley (or ancilliary) tooth again? It could point to belt/pulley problems if there is a relationship!
This should burn up some calculator batteries!
I wonder - if its cam belt related. Goes like this: The important relationship is the number of teeth on the pinions - so x teeth on the crankshaft pulley, 2X on the camshaft and injector pump - as they revolve at half engine speed. Tensioners and water pump are not required to be precise.
The number of teeth on the cambelt does not matter and so its arranged to be a strange figure so that it gently progresses as the engine revolves - so that it runs on different teeth which reduces the establishment of wear patterns.
When I say strange I mean strange - like 141 teeth if your engine is a 2.0 HDi An XUD has 136 teeth and 21 teeth on the creankshaft pulley (If I've counted correctly from the Haynes picture)
Now how many times does the (engine) revolve before a cam belt tooth meets an engine pulley (or ancilliary) tooth again? It could point to belt/pulley problems if there is a relationship!
This should burn up some calculator batteries!
jeremy
Not sure, i didnt think to check that, but i will tomorrow afternoon (got a meeting in the morning),NiSk wrote:Is there any noticable axial play in the crankshaft indicating worn thrust bearings? (sometimes it can be seen when the clutch is depressed)
The thrust bearings are usually plain semi-circular half-washers fitted either side of the centre main bearing journal . . .
just an idea . .
//NiSk
Do i just get an assistant to push to clutch up and down whilst i look at the crankshaft pulley for any noticeable movement ?
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Ahh, now i didnt have it in gear when i was doing the test, it was in neutral, I assume it needs to be in gear to stop the gears freely rotating with the clutch drag ?jeremy wrote:Gearbox will stop rotating entirely if its in gear with the clutch down.
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Blimey !! that has given me lots to think about !!, I will count the teeth on the old cam belt and do some calculations to see what i can come up with, that gives me lots to think about !!, Mine isnt diesel though its a 2.0i 8v petrol XU10J2 engine, its a bit of a dinosoar of an engine !!jeremy wrote:Your knock every 33 revs sounds interesting.
I wonder - if its cam belt related. Goes like this: The important relationship is the number of teeth on the pinions - so x teeth on the crankshaft pulley, 2X on the camshaft and injector pump - as they revolve at half engine speed. Tensioners and water pump are not required to be precise.
The number of teeth on the cambelt does not matter and so its arranged to be a strange figure so that it gently progresses as the engine revolves - so that it runs on different teeth which reduces the establishment of wear patterns.
When I say strange I mean strange - like 141 teeth if your engine is a 2.0 HDi An XUD has 136 teeth and 21 teeth on the creankshaft pulley (If I've counted correctly from the Haynes picture)
Now how many times does the (engine) revolve before a cam belt tooth meets an engine pulley (or ancilliary) tooth again? It could point to belt/pulley problems if there is a relationship!
This should burn up some calculator batteries!
The noise isnt really a knock, its more of a creaking moan sort of noise, a bit like a waterpump bearing that is on its way out !!, I'll record the sound tomorrow and post a link to the download for it so other people can hear it and give opinions, i'll even try and record the noise with a screwdriver against the sump on each end of the sump too to see if that helps with the diagnosis
When i first heard the noise, i instantly though dodgy waterpump bearing and simply fitted a new waterpump and cambelt and tensioner without thinking, expecting it to go away, but it didnt improve at all, and there isnt really much else that can be making the noise as i have run it with the aux belt disconnected to make sure its none of the aux components
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Jeremy has an interesting point!
Have you tried running the engine with the upper cambelt cover removed, and a Tippex (or similar) mark on the belt?
Your description of the noise certainly sounds like a cambelt problem - I've heard them do that shortly before snapping (don't want to worry you
). I guess it's due to the belt teeth riding up and down on the pulleys due to some parts of the belt being more stretched than others.
As you've fitted a new belt, maybe the effect is the same, but due to some other part being eccentric.
Have you tried running the engine with the upper cambelt cover removed, and a Tippex (or similar) mark on the belt?
Your description of the noise certainly sounds like a cambelt problem - I've heard them do that shortly before snapping (don't want to worry you
). I guess it's due to the belt teeth riding up and down on the pulleys due to some parts of the belt being more stretched than others.As you've fitted a new belt, maybe the effect is the same, but due to some other part being eccentric.