Xantia flywheel timing hole & crankshaft pulley bolt

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 10 May 2006, 19:01

Hi all,

Thanks for giving me all your views and thoughts about this job - all the advice is much appreciated.

Special thanks to Richard for the news on the timing covers. However, my model does have air-con, as you rightly said.
Question: will it then be necessary to move/remove an air-con pipe or two to get access to that fiddly 11mm bolt, or does it depend upon the selection of tools you're using or the amount of patience you've got?

Being a cautious person by nature, I'll skip the 'flipping the starter' idea to crack the pulley bolt. If I can't shift it by either heating it up and unscrewing it with my tools, or I'll go to my garage to crack it

.

However, I'm not sure I completely uderstand when you (Richard) say "put a jack or axle stand under the extension and swing away"? Do you mean by extension the highest ride position on the hydraulics?
Also, I've got a simple Draper 1/2" drive breaker bar with a 20" piece of steel tube over this bar to give me more leverage. Am I likely to need a longer 'extension' tube for the breaker bar to give me enough turning power (I'm not built like mike Tyson and missed a few sessions in the gym of late)? If so, I'll firstly have to get the car jacked high up on the axle stands and also go out and get that long piece of scaffolding bar....
Oh, and good to know it's a standard RH thread bolt!!

Thanks to Dave for the advice on the starter removal. Indeed, my car does have that plastic guard over the clutch with the vast array of pipes and wires beneath it; also I noticed the guard is attached to the most accessible bolt and I see a further bolt 'further down' (nearer the ground) on the clutch bell-housing that has a hex socket head.
However, I can only see two bolts on the starter motor - is that correct or is there a bolt hidden somewhere - perhaps under the fuel filter/thermostat housing (or that collection of pipes and cables I need to move with the plastic guard), just to make life really difficult?
Typical Haynes says there are three bolts and a bracket fitted - there is definitely no metal bracket anywhere near that location on my car! (Just the plastic guard cover as mentioned above).
Anyone got any views on that?
Cheers,
Steve

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » 10 May 2006, 21:28

Steve,

First the starter motor.
There are three bolts it's just that one of the Allan socket headed ones is hidden under the plastic guard. You need to move the guard to one side just enough to get to the bolt.

On my car the lower fixing you mention is just a plug that pops into a hole in the bell housing to help locate/support the guard.

Re. the extension stuff.

When you have removed the R/H front wheel - you don't have to jack the car too high, just enough to take the wheel off is OK - and the wheel arch cover, you can see the crank bolt. With a socket on that, add extension(s) so that you can attach the breaker bar and be able to get a push on it outside the line of the bodywork. In order to keep the extension horizontal and stop the whole caboodle twisting off the bolt, place an axle stand at the outer end of the extension to support it.

As has been said, the bolt undoes a lot easier if it is warm.

It might make things easier if you pop the lower rad hose out of it's clip - you will see this when you remove the plastic wheel arch cover. If you use a blowlamp ( small to medium length flame ) take care not to singe the hose. I found that placing my hand around to pull it down and away a little also gives a warning if things are getting too warm. Skin is a great heat sensor !

Overall the timing belt in not a hard job to do. It's awkward working in such a confined space but what you cannot see you can feel fairly easily.
A standard 3/8" square socket driver will fit the the square hole in the adjuster plate.
In my case the most frustrating part was removing the stupid bolt on covers especially the 11mm bolt at the rear that has been mentioned. The BX's I had done before had clip on ones - dead easy.
I also had another problem in that the tensioner plunger had corroded in it's bore and was jammed solid. I spent the best part of a morning trying to remove this (its on the same casting that forms the base of the engine mount, and the modified bolts - to take the bolts for the covers - were too long to come out).
In retrospect it would be easier to just remove the tensioner roller on its pivot plate and tap and twist the plunger from under the car to release it.
I think it would be just possible to clean and grease the bore like that but with any luck you will not have this problem.

Dave.

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 10 May 2006, 22:16

Hi again Dave, thanks for your response.

I'll quickly take the plastic guard off tomorrow (just to suss out the job properly before getting down the the job in earnest in the next couple of weeks). I want to be sure about those bolts!

Now I see what you're saying about the extension tubes on the breaker bar; I think you're saying the axle stand, being positioned at exactly the right height, supports the whole breaker bar/extension tube rig close or on the right-angle joint near the socket/breaker bar on the crankshaft nut (acting as a counter-force, if you like) so that the rig doesn't all twist off under the strain of force being applied to the extension tube. Hard to describe in words, but immediately obvious if you illustrate it with a drawing....
When I frst read the post, I had a picture in my mind that there was a kind of tubes and extension bars working in opposite directions, one on the nut, the other somehow holding the crankshaft pulley - doh

. And whilst I'm having a 'dim' moment - you say the breaker bar is positioned where you can 'get a push on it'. If it's a RH threaded bolt and the crankshaft pulley turns clockwise (when viewed from the right hand wheel arch), won't the breaker bar rig have to be moved anti-clockwise?.....

I'll certainly use a blowlamp to heat the bolt, this makes clear and plain sense.

Thanks again,

Steve

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » 10 May 2006, 22:29

Steve,

I think you have the idea of the set up, but I was describing socket drive extensions from the socket to a point outside the cars bodyline where you can fit the breaker bar. The extension tube goes on the breaker bar to give more leverage.
The bolt will undo anti-clockwise but perhaps I should have said 'lean' (or even 'sit') rather than push as that is what most people do to get enough force.

I'll do a rough sketch and PM it to you.

Dave.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 10 May 2006, 22:33

swiss_steve wrote:I'll certainly use a blowlamp to heat the bolt, this makes clear and plain sense.

It does, but I have to say, I've never ever had to bother. With the 8mm peg in place, and 18" of breaker bar on the 22mm A/F bolt, it's always come out with no problems at all.

I only mention this as there is of course a very real risk of damaging rubber/plastic components in the area with a blowlamp.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 May 2006, 23:07

Me thinks problems are down to DIY'ers not aware of the flywheel locking dovel hole under the starter motor. This locking hole can take quite some punting not detoriating the belt setting accuracy.

The engine should of course NEVER be attempted to be kept locked on the CAM lock dovel holes in such situations

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » 10 May 2006, 23:16

"...I only mention this as there is of course a very real risk of damaging rubber/plastic components in the area with a blowlamp. ..."

Good point, and that is why I did say carefully and also emphasised that a low to medium flame should be used.
Provided the flame is a low(ish) one and is kept exactly on the bolt head all should be OK.
I certainly did not come anywhere near to melting/burning anything.

As you say, with a pin in the flywheel so that all is locked solid there is a better chance of shifting the thing than trying to do it on the brakes.
This (Xantia) is the first time that I had used heat and did so having seen the advice on this board. The bolt did undo remarkably easy.

Dave.

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 11 May 2006, 08:03

Again, many thanks to all for your valued comments and ideas; a special thanks to Dave for the sketch - this definitely fits with my last post on the forum and now clearly see why you would 'push' on the breaker bar extension tube.

I see there are varying ideas about using the 8mm pin in the flywheel to help hold everything tight whilst trying to crack the crankshaft pulley bolt. As I said before, I am a cautious person and have learnt not to rush things on your first attempt on an unfamiliar car (even though I've done a belt change on a Pug 205 diesel 5 years ago), so will try cracking the nut on the brakes, then gently heating the bolthead and finally with the flywheel pin if necessary.

So I think I'm well prepared with all necessary tips and hints to start the job in a week or two when a break in my business allows. If I find any problems or other useful ideas during the job, I'll come back and post the results.

Question to all: does anyone compile a list of such tips and hints in a 'job sheet' type concise format and post it anywhere on the forum for future enquiries? Just a thought - to help prevent everyone going over the same old stuff.....

Cheers and many thanks to all, best regards,

Steve

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 11 May 2006, 12:12

swiss_steve wrote: so will try cracking the nut on the brakes, then gently heating the bolthead and finally with the flywheel pin if necessary.

I've always found there's too much wind up in the transmission to be able to get the engine to be "solid" enough to get the bolt undone. As you have to fit the 8mm flywheel pin anyway in order to fit the belt, I would use this as the first port of call rather than the last.

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 11 May 2006, 12:19

Yeah, I just had another message from Dave suggesting exactly the same thing - so I'll try using the pin from the word go...

Cheers!

Steve

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 17 Jul 2006, 10:27

Hi all,
Well I finally got around to doing the job last Thursday - it took me hours.... Well, it was my first Xantia cambelt change...
For anyone looking at this post for their reference on the nuances of the job, here's the important points:-
My May 1998 registered Xantia 1.9TDi Temptation II was actually built in October 1997. It has air-con also.
1) Firstly, the aux belt has an automatic spring tensioner (like the 2.1 model configuration in the Haynes manual), not a manual tensioner like the older models. Once you work out where the 10mm (3/8') square hole is to move the tensioner, the aux belt removal is relatively straight-forward.
2) Next, getting the start motor off (to find the flywheel hole) is a pain. the plastic guard over the gearbox housing is riddled with wires, pipes and connectors. However, after unclipping various clips to release (most of) the wires, pipers etc, you can move the plastic guard about 6cm to the right, just enough to get access to the uppermost starter motor bolt (8mm allen key head). The other two bolts holding the starter are easy.
3) Getting the engine mount off is also straight-forward (you need a 16mm socket).
4) The next part was a nightmare:- removing the timing belt covers - this car has all bolt-on. The upper front and bottom ones are a bit fiddly, but come out with some jiggling. The upper rear one has the dreaded 11mm head bolt round the back next to the turbo pipe. What sadist in Citroen decided that this bolt needed about 12mm of thread to hold it into the engine block? After a lot of sweat and swearing, I could finally force the bolt out between the turbo pipes (without needing to remove the pipes - fortunately). TIP: I cut off about 7 to 8mm of the end of the bolt thread, leaving about 4 to 5mm left; this is ample screw thread to hold a plastic cover in place and makes it much easier to get the bolt back into the cover upon re-assembly.
5) Using DaveW's advice, I found unscrewing the pulley bolt to be easy, and I didn't need to heat the bolt head. Just locking up the flywheel with the pin was sufficient.
6) I did find that the timing belt tensioner plunger had seized (because of the disimilar metals), but with the earlier tip, I used a bit of WD40 and a few taps with a hammer and it loosened off and functioned normally.
7) The rest went according to the book and with the minor modification on the upper rear cover, I know that next time the job will be much easier and quicker

Thanks to all for their help and advice, it really made the job possible and boosted my confidence - cheers!!