Diesel SM....

Rob81 · Post by **Rob81** » 29 Mar 2006, 12:27

What's everybodys thoughts on this?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 4626359988

Honda · Post by **Honda** » 29 Mar 2006, 13:07

I know Régembeau. He has done some fine and serious jobs on SM.

The problem here is that a diesel engine does not respect the spirit of the SM.
Coupés and cabrios beg for petrol musical engines with high revs.

Original SM engine was a good engine except for reliability.
Would a recent PSA-Renault V6 3.0 fit the SM? That would be an adequate engine for that car.

Still, a i-VTEC would be perfect...

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 29 Mar 2006, 21:10

Honda wrote:Original SM engine was a good engine except for reliability.

No it wasn't! it was a Maserati V8 with 2 cylinders missing, thus it was a 90degree V6, which just doesn't work.

Now, if it'd had the original V8 engine, things may have been different.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 29 Mar 2006, 22:13

The PVR V6 (as found the the MKI XM and numerous other PSA cars) was a 90 degree V6 too. It was originally being engineered to be a V8 but with taxes being applied to big engines, they decided it was going to be a V6 instead so 2 cylinders got lopped off, the thing ended up being big heavy and bulky. Thankfully the current V6 is a more ideal 60 degrees.

Honda · Post by **Honda** » 30 Mar 2006, 11:07

fastandfurryous wrote: No it wasn't! it was a Maserati V8 with 2 cylinders missing, thus it was a 90degree V6, which just doesn't work.

Now, if it'd had the original V8 engine, things may have been different.

A friend of mine had one SM. He had lots of trouble with the engine and end by selling the car. Really nasty reliability. The car was also getting rusty...

I remember once going for a ride and the engine was smooth and powerful. You could travel at over 200km/h on the highway with good comfort. Surprising results for a 25 years old design. I really liked the engine!
The suspension did not have the magic floating sensation of a good shape DS21.

I think the CX GTi with 4 cilinders engine is a much better car than the SM. It is just a pitty that it also rusts badly.

mezuk04 · Post by **mezuk04** » 30 Mar 2006, 11:16

A friend of mine had one SM. He had lots of trouble with the engine and end by selling the car. Really nasty reliability. The car was also getting rusty...

Without sounding nasty because im a lovely fellar but your actually starting to annoy me now, well not a lot but just starting. I need interesting posts to read while im at work

but its getting a bit tiresome now

Keep it secret keep it safe

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:10

Kowalski wrote:The PVR V6 was a 90 degree V6 too. It was originally being engineered to be a V8 but 2 cylinders got lopped off, the thing ended up being big heavy and bulky.

Indeed. Do you know what was done to make it run properly? For later engines, a crankshaft was designed that had offsets of +15degrees and -15degrees between big-end journals, which made the engine "pretend" it was a 60 degree V6 engine. It then weighed even more, as the crankshaft weighed about a tonne, but at least it could operate with the firing order of a 60degree V6 engine.

It's this same engine that made Renault 25's rough as nuts, gave 6-cylinder Volvo's single-figure fuel economy, and contributed to the demise of the DeLorean

What a complete heap of junk!

Honda · Post by **Honda** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:33

fastandfurryous wrote:What a complete heap of junk!

Yes, but that's a recent engine while the SM engine was an old concept. Citroen XM, for instance, used that engine between 89-96.
French press considered the PRV a joke and an example of bad engineering. Its capacity was 3.0 liter, its power only 168bhp and the consumption higher than the BMW 4.0 V8.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:45

Honda wrote:Yes, but that's a recent engine while the SM engine was an old concept. .

PRV V6 was designed in the early 70's, and released in 1974. Hardly recent.......

(in fact, only a few years later than the SM.)

Honda · Post by **Honda** » 30 Mar 2006, 16:59

Well, production of the PRV V6 was stopped on June 15, 1998. A few years ago it equipped the top-of-the-line models from Citroen, Peugeot and Renault.
I agree it is not a recent engine neither a good one, but was the best the three main french brands could get in the nineties...

Nowdays it's a different story. PSA will use on their models much better petrol engines from BMW's, Toyota, and Mitsubishi.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 30 Mar 2006, 17:10

Honda.

I fail to see your point, you are contradicting yourself and making some serious errors.

Since you appear to be able to find information from Wikipedia, why have you not noticed that PSA are infact using their V6 ES9 engine, and aren't (yet) buying in from other manufacturers. I believe the ES9 is due to continue in the C6 and Pug 407 for some time yet.

Could someone please lock this topic... it's going nowhere (and I know, I'm not helping.)

Honda · Post by **Honda** » 30 Mar 2006, 17:26

There is no contradition and no error.

Petrol engines:
Present: PSA uses Toyota engines on city cars.
Very soon: PSA drops 1.6 to start using BMW design.
In a year: PSA starts using Mitsubishi 2.4.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 30 Mar 2006, 20:22

Compared to the number of diesel cars Citroen sells, the petrol sales are small. In Europe, diesel is cheaper than petrol by some margin so many more diesel cars are sold in Europe than in the UK. PSA did produce some good petrol engines in the past, don't forget the 1.9 Mi16, that engine has a substantial following because it was powerful to begin with and could be tuned to 200bhp with little effort.

Quite a few manufacturers use PSA engines in their cars and have done for many years.

For example

FSO Polonez (D)
Lada Niva (D / TD)
Lancia Zeta 1.9 TD
LDV 200 Series and Pilot 1.9 D
Rover 218d and 418d
Talbot Horizon and Solara 1.9 D
Suzuki Baleno & Vitara Diesels
Various Fords and Jaguars
Fiat Ulysse

I can see Mazda and Volvo getting the PSA diesels (if they don't already) in the future too. The Mini is to be fitted with the 1.4 HDI (No doubt rebadged BMW or Mini) instead of the Toyota diesel it currently has in it.

The reason the PRV engine stopped production was because it was replaced by the ES9 (as mentioed above). The ES9 is new, modern and compares favourably with any other mid range V6 engine, e.g. Ford, Vauxhall etc.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 30 Mar 2006, 22:13

Honda wrote:There is no contradition

Sure?

Honda wrote:Yes, but that's a recent engine

Honda wrote:I agree it is not a recent engine

Both in reference to the PRV V6.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 30 Mar 2006, 23:03

In the early 80's the PRV engine was improved signficantly - certainly for the Renault 25 turbo and probably for all others later. As has rightly been pointed out its problems were fundamental - V6's shouldn't be 90 degree engines - but - if you modify the crankshaft by in effect splitting the crankpins into 2 bearings each 30 degrees from the other - the engine thinks its a 60 degree engine.

Does anyone know if this crank was adopted for the other engines or did it just die with the Renault 25 turbo?