Citroen XM suspension problem. HELP!!!

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Mandrake
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Post by Mandrake »

Gus wrote:Thank you all again for your help, I really appreciate it. Last night, I did the Citaerobics for maybe 3 or 4 times (normal height->maximum height->minimum height->normal height). I went for a drive right after that and the problem was gone!!! My beloved XM was back to normal, magic carpet ride again.

HOWEVER, today it got hard again, like before... Well, not as bad as before, but it just feels like a normal car again. Bugger!!!!!

At least, now I know that all the spheres are OK, since they worked brilliantly last night. So, now what?
You could have the dreaded sticky/worn front struts that I think my Xantia has - even though they don't creak or groan, the ride can intermitantly become fidgety almost harsh - and the front ride quality seems to be VERY sensitive to the ride height... just 10mm too low makes the ride a lot worse.

Greasing the front struts gives a temporary reprieve of a couple of weeks but then the harshness returns. Doing Citroebics also gives a temporary reprieve which only lasts a day or two. (I presume the full excursion helps to lubricate the strut slightly)

As of yet I havn't found a cure :cry:

Part of my problem seems to be that the front height corrector is overshooting a bit in height corrections (thus causing inconsistant ride height) and is sometimes making height adjustments to the front while driving - which I think is caused by the spring assembly next to the height corrector needing lubricating, which I will look at on the weekend.

But the ride quality shouldn't be so height sensitive in the first place...
I've read somewhere in the forum that the Citaerobics should be performed for 5 to 10 times. Should I just go ahead and do it some more? Am I right in thinking "the more, the better"?
More than 5/10 times is highly unlikely to do anything. In fact I personally have never noticed any improvement past one or two times that can't be attributed to something else.

My feeling is that the temporary improvement in ride quality that some people see after a full up/down cycle is simply a temporary improvement in the sliding of the front suspension struts after exercising them through their full travel, and that the real problem could be the bushes are worn in the struts.

This theory is partly confirmed (in my opinion) because this nonsense of the ride temporarily improving after exercising the height up and down that I see with Xantia's did NOT happen on older models such as CX and GS which dont have the McPherson struts - both of which I had driven for many years without EVER seeing the phenomenon of the ride quality varying randomly and getting better after Citreobics.

Unfortunately since the struts are very expensive its not something that can easily be proved without wasting a lot of money, so for now it will remain an unsolved mystery on my car :cry:

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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Post by Gus »

Well, just did a few more Citaerobics, the ride did get a bit better, but I am really not sure how long this is going to last for. I am getting really disappointed...

I think both of you guys (who wrote the last 2 replies before me) have a strong point there. I believe both make sense. I wish I knew which of the 2 is true with my car though, if any...

I don't know what to say anymore. This is the second XM that I have had, I have had the suspension overhauled before, but this is the first time that I am experiencing such problems. XM's were my favourite cars ever since I was a teenager, and no matter what happens it will always have the best place in my heart, but my mind is about to take over, and after I pay a last visit to the garage, if there is no feasible solution, I will have to sell it and get another car (a Citroen of course), possibly a diesel ZX or something, just a cheap runabout.

That's how desperate I have become.....
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Post by dnsey »

Before taking such a drastic step, why not have the spheres pressure tested?
It's not impossible that one of the replacements is faulty, and leaking nitrogen into the system - pressure testing will spot it straight away, or reassure you that the spheres are not the problem.
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Post by tj »

Gus,
Your LHM intake pipe may be leaking and causing air ingestion. BTW, is your steering feeling heavier than it should be? There will be no external visible sign of leakage but the tell tale signs are cracked rubber pipes specially at the joints or an improperly tightened hose clips. This could the reason why your car feels better after citroerobics and then back to the same problem after a while. You expelled the air and more got sucked in.



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Post by Clogzz »

Mandrake wrote:the dreaded sticky/worn front struts that I think my Xantia has
As of yet I haven't found a cure :cry:
so for now it will remain an unsolved mystery on my car :cry:
Mandrake, this link may have a cure to your problem, 2 pages:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... php?t=7184
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Post by Mandrake »

Clogzz wrote:
Mandrake wrote:the dreaded sticky/worn front struts that I think my Xantia has
As of yet I haven't found a cure :cry:
so for now it will remain an unsolved mystery on my car :cry:
Mandrake, this link may have a cure to your problem, 2 pages:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... php?t=7184
Hi Cogzz,

Unfortunately I am well aware of that thread as it is a rather old one.... also the pipe in the jar of LHM trick doesn't work on the Xantia due to different strut design - it won't suck in any LHM - I've tried it and there was a very slight improvement that disapeared after only one day, a similar improvement to what I get fully lowering and raising the suspension on its own.

If you check back through my posts you'll see I've been hunting this problem down for months (along with a few strange HA2 problems) and have pretty much covered all bases.

I'm almost certain that its a case of the top bronze bush (just below the top plate on the black strut housing) being worn and/or dry, and to test the idea I did the following yesterday:

Lifted the suspension right up, and pulled down the gaters (car supported safely of course :) ) and inspected the shaft - and I notice that the left hand side shaft has a small wear patch about 6mm square in size on the left hand side, the rest of the shaft is shiny while that area is dull.

The dull area is in such a position that it would probably be touching the bush at normal height, and is probably a wear spot from the bush.

Additionally, even though they have been lubricated/greased etc about 3 times now in the previous 3 months the shafts were absolutely bone dry with no sign of previous lubrication.

To convince myself it is the top bush that is the cause of the problems I carefully poured a small amount of LHM down the shaft to form a small ring of oil at the interface of the shaft and the strut housing, put the gaters back on, lowered the car to normal height (WITHOUT doing any citrerobics) and went for a test drive.

BINGO, front now rides like a magic carpet. The effect was immediate without having to even do any up down cycles. Nearly all fidgeting and harshness was gone, and the ride is quite surreal, just as I remember my GS used to be many years ago.

Ride during acceleration, braking and cornering, which was p**s poor before, now seems perfectly normal. I even notice a little bit more roll around the corners now, but not much. Stability at high speed is much better, with less side to side rocking on uneven surfaces.

I think that proves pretty conclusively that wear/dryness of the top bush is the problem. Unfortunately I know from past experience that this improvement will be short lived as the oil is dispersed.

Personally I think Citroen made a big mistake in the design by making the top bush a dry bush (there is no method for it to self lubricate like the bottom one) and also an unservicable one, and I am racking my brains to think of a simple modification to keep the top bush wetted slightly with oil.

I'm thinking about the idea of gluing a round felt pad to the top of the strut housing impregnated with oil which is touching the shaft, thus keeping it wetted with a thin film of oil. How long the effect would last I don't know however.

A more ambitious design change (which would require an engineering workshop and a spare pair of struts) would be to modify the strut design such that the overflow oil pipe could feed a small oil supply hole in the side of the strut at the top right into the bush itself - much like gudgeon pins are lubricated on an engine using an oilway. A tiny V groove in the middle of the bronze bush with a small hole in one side would be all thats needed - the oil pressure would be only that of the gravity feed back from the overflow pipe to the tank...

Anybody else think of changes like this ?

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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Binding Xantia struts

Post by Clogzz »

Hi Mandrake,

Can the strut shaft be spun around to expose an unworn area to the point of stress ?

I also read a story on the ‘Planet Citroën’ forum about the strut shafts being made of the ‘wrong metal’, and also causing the strut top failures because of a sort of electrolysis affecting the rubber mounts.

Before embarking on an engineering job, wouldn't it be worth trying high temperature wheel bearing grease or SAE 90 gear oil as used in the differentials of the old rear wheel drive cars ?
From my experience, they seem to be the most tenacious lubricants.

Best wishes.
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Post by Gus »

Hallo again everybody. Been to the garage, talked to them, but they would only look at the car once I had a booking, and suggested that, since the ride is as hard as I was telling them, I should probably think about changing them again, but with original Citroen spheres supplied by them this time, quoting me a figure exceeding 400 quid. Now that's hilarious!

Anyway, I wasted a lot of time and money with them it seems, so I booked the car in for next Wednesday at Westroen in Manchester, to have the spheres tested (which they do for free at least), and replace them if required (which may be more than likely) with their own reconditioned units, quoting me just 185 quid, everything included, plus the fact that they are guaranteed for 3 years. I wish I had done that in the first place, but thought that Amtex spheres, being brand new, would last longer... Crap

The person I talked with at Westroen didn't sound very enthusiastic with Amtex spheres AT ALL, telling me that they are really a compromise, compared with the original ones, that's why they only recondition only original spheres themselves.

Has anybody of you ever heard about Amtex spheres going wrong by any chance? And is it true that they don't offer the same ride as the original ones, or don't last as long??? I am very curious.

By the way, at this point, even after plenty of Citaerobics, there is absolutely no difference in the ride of my car whatsoever. Could this mean anything???
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Re: Binding Xantia struts

Post by Mandrake »

Clogzz wrote:Hi Mandrake,

Can the strut shaft be spun around to expose an unworn area to the point of stress ?
It could be, but it would require undoing the nut at the top and breaking the taper before it would turn. Also I don't think it will help much, as this was effectively already done before I bought the car - as the strut tops had to be replaced due to the dreaded cracking/rotting rubber syndrome.

Presumably the struts cylinders themselves are original, therefore the shaft alignment is highly unlikely to be the same as before the strut tops were replaced.
I also read a story on the ‘Planet Citroën’ forum about the strut shafts being made of the ‘wrong metal’, and also causing the strut top failures because of a sort of electrolysis affecting the rubber mounts.
That sounds unlikely - electrolysis cant affect rubber, and there is no electrical connection between the metal part of the strut top and the plate that bolts onto the body.

The shafts are probably chrome-vanadium steel alloy or similar, theres not much else that they could use that would be strong enough (remember its hollow) and have a precision hard wearing long lasting surface.

The strut tops themselves are cast iron I understand.
Before embarking on an engineering job, wouldn't it be worth trying high temperature wheel bearing grease or SAE 90 gear oil as used in the differentials of the old rear wheel drive cars ?
From my experience, they seem to be the most tenacious lubricants.

Best wishes.
Well I wasn't seriously going to attempt it, it was just one of those "what if" ideas. I had thought about trying thicker oil, the main reason for using the LHM is that there is no possibility of contaminating the hydraulic system with the wrong oil.

With another kind of oil, who knows whether it can work its way down inside the strut and get into the LHM system. (After all the oil must be disapearing somewhere when the effects wear off...)

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

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Post by dnsey »

I don't think traces of mineral oil would be likely to harm the hydraulics. Citroen recommend oil (SAE 30?) as a get-you-home measure in an emergency. Admittedly, they say the system should be flushed afterwards, but there'd still be some oil circulating.
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Post by Clogzz »

Hi Mandrake,

This thread, probably known to you, shows Shane greasing the strut shaft with ordinary grease:

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13798

It might be interesting to know what the finding has been since.

As for the electrolysis story, it looked nonsensical to me too because the rubber block actually makes an insulator.
Yet, when the strut tops started breaking in France, they let the spin doctors loose, and that’s the story they arrived with, probably to impress the peasants. :^o
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Post by Mandrake »

Clogzz wrote:Hi Mandrake,

This thread, probably known to you, shows Shane greasing the strut shaft with ordinary grease:

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13798

It might be interesting to know what the finding has been since.
Yes,

Thats what I originally lubricated the struts with on my car. Grease works quite well and lasts a few weeks before it starts to wear off, but it too is only a temporary solution - at least if there is wear in the bush.

For struts that are genuinely just sticky and not worn (like I suspect is the case on my Dad's car) the grease can make a permanent improvement. On mine I've greased it 3 times over 3 months now, and it has only made a short lived difference. :cry:

As for the electrolysis story, it looked nonsensical to me too because the rubber block actually makes an insulator.
Yet, when the strut tops started breaking in France, they let the spin doctors loose, and that’s the story they arrived with, probably to impress the peasants. :^o
Yep, sounds like.... :D

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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Post by dnsey »

Would PTFE 'dry' lubricant last longer?
It seems to bond to the metal, and its own low friction should minimise wear on the film.
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Post by Mandrake »

dnsey wrote:Would PTFE 'dry' lubricant last longer?
It seems to bond to the metal, and its own low friction should minimise wear on the film.
Sorry, not familiar with this stuff. Do you have any info on it ?

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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Post by dnsey »

I had a can for ages, but it was part of a bulk pack, and had no label.

This

http://www.lpslabs.com/Products/TDS/Dry ... lubricant'

looks like the same sort of stuff.

It comes in an aerosol. The actual lubricant is suspended in alcohol, which quickly evaporates and leaves a very low friction surface. It's almost invisible when dry, but can just be seen as a very fine white powder or film, which seems to bond itself pretty securely to the component.
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