Are we going to have a fuel shortage?

James.UK · Post by **James.UK** » 15 Sep 2005, 01:07

I filled up tonight, forecourt was virtually empty, no queues, plenty of fuel, 97P a litre though.. [V]
So far I haven't had to use my "spare" 3 litre bottle of sunflower oil stored in the boot. [:)]
Forecast is that prices will drop a bit next week, but I think we going to have to accept that fuel prices are going to go on rising steadily for a very long time..
.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 15 Sep 2005, 01:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by yangreen
Underfloor tanks are popular on off roaders which seems silly as I have heard of someone rupturing their tank off road!! Yes, quite a few 4x4 owners actually do use them for their intended purpose. Just not enough of them!
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The fuel tank on the Range Rover is low down at the back, there used to be 2 on the car park at work, and I did wonder whether it was a clever place to put it, on an overhang at the back. If you get the Jeep Cherokee (the original Cherokee) with the 4 litre petrol engine, it comes with a much bigger fuel tank than turbo diesel, and again it hangs down at the back underneath the overhang. It's pretty common for people to get their 4x4s hung up on the rear overhang, and if there is a big fuel tank under there it's going to get ruptured.
I should have mentioned that I meant the "new" Range Rover, i.e. the Ford one with the BMW engine in it...

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 15 Sep 2005, 03:23

The Petrol tank on a Range Rover isn't that low really. I've severely off-roaded my old Rangie, and the tank never got anywhere near being damaged. The problem comes with fitting something that the vehicle wasn't designed to have in the first place. Rangies either end up with no boot space, or ridiculous tanks hanging down under the sills.
There are kits available to put a smaller tank in one of the other spaces under the car, and replace the original tank with an LPG tank, but they cost lots.
One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that LPG is actually more expensive than petrol, in terms of fuel cost. The only reason it's so cheap in the UK is because it only attracts tax at 6p/litre. Stupid really that a fossil fuel, which actually requires a fair bit of energy to make (or, more accurately, to liquify) is taxed less than renewable vegetable oil / Bio-diesel.

Forth · Post by **Forth** » 15 Sep 2005, 03:36

we have seriously considered getting a 4x4 when either the ZX or the Xantia eventually needs replacing.... not for any of the reasons already stated, but because so many of the road surfaces have been allowed to get so bad nowadays, and the bigger wheels and tyres are the main attraction.
If the gubbermint do hit aviation fuel, bet its the Stornoway / Glasgow flight that suffers (already horrifying in price, but essential) not the scroteland specials to places that maybe once were nice but not since mass-tourism.....
And if you wonder why the government don't encourage biofuels in Britain to any great extent, wonder even more why they and the (ulterior-motived) Greenies ignore SWERF so vehemently yet are happy to impose pointless bin-stazi apparachiks and ineffective forms of recycling instead (one output of SWERF being biofuel, and one potential being the reprocessing of existing landfill -- not least the sites in Cumbria stuffed with decomposing waste from the foot-and-mouth culls and which continue to cause problems....
If you do register with the Customs to use cooking oil, are they likely to accuse you of using more than you actually do?

yangreen · Post by **yangreen** » 15 Sep 2005, 15:05

Forth, well don't get an Isuzu Trooper mk1! The ride was appalling. The 2cv has 15" wheels which is about as small as they get on anything these days and is very comfortable! Perfect replacement!

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 15 Sep 2005, 19:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Forth

we have seriously considered getting a 4x4 when either the ZX or the Xantia eventually needs replacing.... not for any of the reasons already stated, but because so many of the road surfaces have been allowed to get so bad nowadays, and the bigger wheels and tyres are the main attraction.
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My Dad has a Jeep Cherokee, it is a proper off roader with big wheels and solid axles, and the ride is not good, there are small bumps that you just don't feel in the Xantia but the Jeep manages to find them. In fact unless you're talking about really big bumps like driving up a curb, the Xantia copes with them far better.
4x4s come with robust tyres designed for driving off road, they have to be robustly made so they have thick sidewalls and small bumps penetrate. A proper off roader will have quite firm suspension with a lot of travel because if you hit a big bump at speed off road and bottom out your suspension you will break something. Soft roaders have high centres of gravity so they need stiff suspension to get them to drive like a car and that makes the ride bad too.
You're going to have to try out some 4x4s to find out whether or not they ride better than the Xantia, I seriously doubt you'll be able to find one that does.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 16 Sep 2005, 02:10

Quite firm suspension? How do you work that one out? The original Range Rover had ultra-soft suspension, which is needed for axle articulation. The stiffer the suspension, the less axle articulation available.
Modern electronically controlled suspension systems are able to be stiff on the road, and soft off road, but if you're talking about simple springs and dampers, then stiff suspension means a lack of off-road ability.
Nothing makes this point more than the "series" landrover with leaf-springs. Unfortunatley, you get very little axle articulation with these, and so they're actually NOT that good in extreme off-road situations. Far better is the Range-Rover/Defender/Discovery system with long travel soft coil springs. However, your point about bottoming out the suspension is true, which is why Series Landrovers last longer than modern ones, as on a Series vehicle, the driver breaks before the vehicle does.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 16 Sep 2005, 02:11

How far off-topic have we gone?! [:D]

yangreen · Post by **yangreen** » 16 Sep 2005, 02:57

Just proves how much of a non-event the fuel protests were!
Trooper had leaf springs and didn't I know it! Crap off road as not enough axle articulation. Crap on road as it was bouncy as hell! It's the beam axles that really compromise on road behaviour I think. That's why independent seems to be the way forward. Funny, my 2cv designed during the second world war has all independent springing.
NOTE - I am attempting to mention my 2cv in every post!

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 16 Sep 2005, 03:37

But the barrel price of oil is still on the up.........
I think more of a protest may have been planned but not enough protestors turned up. What happened to the rolling motorway blockades that were promised?
Then again, they could be blocking the refineries right now.....stealth action.......

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 16 Sep 2005, 04:09

Thing is, that to be honest, the increase of the price of fuel is insignificant compared to the increase in the cost of houses and land. I've been driving for nearly 13 years now, and the cost of fuel has roughly doubled (just under 50p/litre when I started. Compare that to the price of a house which has quadrupled, and it becomes fairly insignificant.
Plus, that's a numerical doubling. If inflation is taken into account, then it's actually not gone up by as much as that in real terms.
When you compare that with things like the increase in cost of serivces like electricians and plumbers (something few of us here use I'm sure), then a numerical doubling in 13 years isn't actually that bad.

Forth · Post by **Forth** » 16 Sep 2005, 04:39

If keeping it strictly legal then often there would be no choice than to use a fully certified electrician or plumber these days, however expensive in some areas, with recent rules.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 16 Sep 2005, 05:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by fastandfurryous

Quite firm suspension? How do you work that one out? The original Range Rover had ultra-soft suspension, which is needed for axle articulation. The stiffer the suspension, the less axle articulation available.
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With a car you can have progressive wound springs / variable spring rates but because of the need for 4x4 wheel articulation the spring rates have to be as near to constant as possible, so you tend to get quite firm suspension. The progressive wound springs mean that your suspension is soft over a short travel and then becomes very stiff to avoid the bump stop problem, if you put that sort of spring on a 4x4 you'd end up with wheel articulation problems.
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However, your point about bottoming out the suspension is true, which is why Series Landrovers last longer than modern ones, as on a Series vehicle, the driver breaks before the vehicle does.
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My Dad had series I and II Land Rovers years ago and he did complain about the ride, the second one he had was ex-army and it had stiffer than standard rear springs which didn't help much.