bizarre twist to MG-Rover demise.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 21 Jun 2005, 17:59

Glycol was the basis of hydrolastic fluid wasn't it - and we know what happens if yuou drink that!
Yes had a number of BMC / BL cars at the time - remember a dreadful Marina 1.8 with what I can only describe as radio controlled steering - I had no idea what was going on underneath, a Triumph Stag which of course had rear wheel steering - the difference between the later Honds and even Citroen and Porsche systems for rear wheel steer is that they manage to control it and Triumph didn't bother, a Truimph 1300 which was a nice little car with apalling brakes and rear wheel steering again which did manage to land me in a ditch.
Mind you there were some other horrors as well - an 1800 Firenza which my partner bought only to find out it was cheaper to use my 4.2 Jaguar instead as its engine was so inneficient (horribly noisy as well)
I remember the complaints about BMC engines was that they were all long stroke - eg B series at 3.5 inches - 89 mm - Its funny how attitudes change as what is the stroke of a Citroen 1905 cc engine - yes - 88 mm and the 16 valve revs like fury!
Jeremy

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 21 Jun 2005, 18:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ghostrider

I know the management was crap but just like the British Motorcycle industry in the end what happened was as inevitble as day following night and the abuse I'll get for this post, but I was there and experienced it first hand RIP Rover
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You probably will get abuse, but not from me. Rover didn't produce competitive products and didn't make money, it was a failure as a company. The unions made their demands, they weren't productive (i.e. too much pay, note enough work) Rover made no profit to invest in R&D so they got left behind, the engineering in the Rover 25 and 45 date from the late 80s. They simply could not sell their cars at the prices they needed to to have R&D money, its a viscous cycle. The management were partly to blame, but the workers (past and present) played their part too.
I work in Sunderland not far from where Nissan has its plant. The unions here know exactly what the situation is, the plant is the most productive in the world in terms of cars produced per man year but they STILL have to tender and compete with other Nissan (and Renault now) plants. An example of this was the new Micra, the unions were told that if they wanted to be employed in making that car they had to be productive.

nick · Post by **nick** » 21 Jun 2005, 18:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by drpau

You can get 800s and 600s for buttons these days, someone mentioned at auction the other day an 02 reg MG ZS (the rover 400 looking one) 58k, went for £1950 [:0] how cheap is that!!! How gutted would you be if you bought one for top dollar 6 months ago.[:(!]
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A colleague of mine and her husband shelled out a large chunk of their savings on a brand new top spec Rover 75 only a few months back. They are absolutely gutted. They used to keep the Rover for "best" and commute in an 175k Citroen ZX 1.9D. I notice recently that the ZX seems to have been kept for best, and they are now travelling to work in the Rover!
To make matters worse, both their daughters had recently bought new MGs too, and their son works for a Rover dealer[:(]

demag · Post by **demag** » 22 Jun 2005, 00:30

I work with three lads who were on the maintenance at Longbridge. Luckily they all got out before the crash but two of them aren't sure how they stand with their pensions now, which I think is an absolute disgrace.
They told me that without doubt the best times were when Honda were in there. Everything was structured properly. The management were on the shop floor with the workforce. There were regular meetings so everyone new what was happening. And they had clean overalls waiting for them every morning!
The Japs used to bring their own machinery from Japan. By this I mean designed and made at Honda. One of the lads noticed a new machine had got very poor access and mentioned this to a Japanese manager. "How will we get in when it breaks down?" he asked. The manager quickly replied "It won't break down". And, get this, he was right! It didn't break down. How's that for confidence.
Everyone was gutted when BMW took over, once again Rover management did the oposite to what everyone was expecting and Honda were out. All BMW did was to get the mini and the 4 wheel drive technology, that was all they wanted and then they left it to the (in)famous four.

drpau · Post by **drpau** » 22 Jun 2005, 02:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by demag

Everyone was gutted when BMW took over, once again Rover management did the oposite to what everyone was expecting and Honda were out. All BMW did was to get the mini and the 4 wheel drive technology, that was all they wanted and then they left it to the (in)famous four.
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I agree with that, when BMW came on the seen Rovers sales were on course to exceed BMWs in continental europe, by the time BMW had finished all that was left was the ageing 200,400 and relatively new 75. They took with them the mini, the r30 (the proposed replacement for the 200 (or 25)-which they had no use for and is said to be languishing in the dungeons of BMW) and sold Land Rover to Ford for about 1.8 billion.
Looks like some 'old money' Brummie with Taiwanese backing is on the scene now to buy it and bring it back to its former glory. Lets hope it does actually happen and those scumbag SAIC dont get their mits on it.
Bit more info on the TF- its said to be a small portion of the TF that SAIC now owns the patents to. God only knows what that is supposed to mean....

Post by **Richard Green** » 22 Jun 2005, 02:14

well all I can say is its war without the need to fight, we give the Germans everything rover/mini/RR and they just wipe our companies out for good measure then ride on the names of what were good cars, at least the rover 75 has some hope. what this country trying to do to the car builder I cant imagine but someone is getting very rich behind the scenes.

drpau · Post by **drpau** » 22 Jun 2005, 02:38

here we go, that rich guy from Birmingham I was on about,
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/busi ... is%20Money
Paul

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:26

In his dreams!!!
God knows what he'd call it in the remote possibility the deal comes off, the Rover brand name is still owned by BMW who leased it to phoenix, and who knows who owns the MG name at the moment!!!

Post by **Richard Green** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:31

yet another song and dance act he will get it without any debts being paid the lads/lasses wont get their pensions sorted so its a winner all the time for the rich boys, he will start it up milk it like the rest then sell it back to the Germans for a penny after running massive debts up and claiming loads of grants from the government just as the other have done then the Germans will kill it off again but keep the badge which seems to be their ploy like the mini and others, yet another sad story waiting to happen I can see the headline now "tycoon makes a run with pension funds" now where have I heard that one before, I just hope whoever gets it considers the people who make it all work and that's the linesmen and women and the car buyers also I hope the new owner dont just look at it as a fat cow ready to be milked AGAIN.

Post by **Richard Green** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:39

ps: im not knocking the Germans because they make fine cars and one cant blame them for seizing the opportunity to get a working business for nothing that's business I suppose Im just glad money isnt that important to me because I could not live with myself doing this to hard working people like that.

demag · Post by **demag** » 22 Jun 2005, 06:43

I have to get this off my chest and I'm sorry if it offends some people but this is what I firmly believe.
When big companies get into difficulties or go to the wall, 99 times out of 100 the blame lies fairly and squarely with a, the directors and b, the government. I am talking about UK companies and nothing else.
I have worked for a number of large publicly owned companies and I have to say the majority of them are/were an absolute shambles with a totally out of touch management frittering away absolute thousands, if not millions of pounds.
Most of these dinosaurs are controlled by tyrranic managers and over powerful accountants. They will not talk or listen to the people who know the business inside out, the employees.
The management style is: "We run the company, we know best, if you don't like it, shove off. There's plenty of temps who'd love your job".
They rule by intimidation and fear, so that the employee knows the axe can swing at any time.
About ten years ago I worked for an extremely successful UK company. We were in the FTSE100, we really were that good. The shares were hovering around the £10 mark, we were the darlings of the city. There was a buzz about the place, it was electric, it was absolutely brilliant. In London's eyes we could do no wrong. When we made a move people took notice. A foreign company bought enough shares to get a controlling interest and they seconded their directors onto our board.
Within 6 years that company had gone, bought out by a much smaller competitor because the new management did things how they wanted to, totally underestimated the market and cocked the lot up. Even the original founder of the company put an open letter in the FT warning the new management they were heading for disaster. The new MD replied saying the market had changed and he should keep his nose out of their business.
We were all made redundant.
I am now a maintenance engineer on contract to a so called "blue chip" company who have a niche market throughout Europe. They are market leaders in their field. They are a profitable company. The reason they are profitable is not because of their management expertise, but because their products have 700% mark up on them! They buy them for peanuts, and sell them for an obscene profit. I have never seen such waste in my life, it is unbelievable. If it was run properly they could double the profits without any problem.
It is farcical to watch and there is a rampant blame culture there. If something goes wrong (as it often does) instead of looking at the situation to try and correct the problem so it doesn't happen again, they go on a witch hunt to find a culprit to blame! Quite often that is us because they buy the cheapest machinery they can and expect Rolls Royce performance out of it, and when it doesn't deliver because its crap we get the blame for not keeping it running! Our boss won't say anything to upset the apple cart because the contract is worth £250,000 a year to him.
I have always loved my work. I have always been lucky enough to have interesting jobs that stimulated me. And I have always worked with some great colleagues, absolute salt of the earth the lot of them. But now after all these years of watching how these companies operate. How the directors feather their nests a la Rover and leave the worker to get on with it, I have had enough. I've had the stuffing knocked out of me. I never thought I'd feel like this but all I want to do now is retire and get out of it all. I feel old before my time. The state of British Industry is a sorry mess. Like Rover, big multinationals coming in and picking off the good bits like BMW and SAIC. You can't blame them, they are doing what we should be doing. But this country has lost it now and I think it will be a long time getting sorted out.
Sorry to have rambled.

Post by **Richard Green** » 22 Jun 2005, 11:09

that's not rambling mate its the damned truth and you put it so well even I cant add to it, you leave a lump in my throat and a tear in my eyes.

yangreen · Post by **yangreen** » 26 Jun 2005, 01:29

Don't forget that BMW invested heavily in Rover and that without them, the 75 would probably never have happened. The problem was that BMW were in love with the "classic British" image and wanted to make the German idea of a british car - same with the Mini.
The Mini however is funky and appealing to all but the 75 didn't seem to appeal to anyone under the age of 65.
BMW made the best of a nightmare situation. They didn't asset strip to the degree of the incompetent, uncaring Buffoons of the Phoenix Group. Despite John Towers having some experience in car manufacture, he let some real donkeys develop (CityRover and SV) which destroyed everything the good side had worked for - the MG saloons, success in Touring cars etc. Money people are only interested in money. They didn't seem to really consider whether any of their ideas would actually be successful.
Sorry, have been on holiday and needed a monster post to get me back in the forum spirit!

Post by **Richard Green** » 26 Jun 2005, 02:14

hope you had a nice time, and yes they did invest heavily in the "mini" and also stole the name but they did make it stronger and breathed life back into a classic car, the 75 is a nice car but not the ideal for the young in mind, from what I see up to now its a solid car ad well built, MG have done a lot better its just a shame things have not turned out as they wanted I only hope it doesnt die off because so called British cars are now thin on the ground, we need to get back in there to prove we can still make them other wise we Will become a nation of shop keepers like thatcher predicted.

Post by **CitroJim** » 26 Jun 2005, 02:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Richard Green

I only hope it doesnt die off because so called British cars are now thin on the ground, we need to get back in there to prove we can still make them other wise we Will become a nation of shop keepers like thatcher predicted.
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Yes, totally agreed Richard. I've had much British tin in my driving career out of a very strong desire to fly the flag but there came a point when they stopped offering me what I needed. If only a credible British rival to the Peugeot 205, 405 and Citroen Xantia were availabe in the late 80's and early 90's then I very much doubt I'd be here today posting on a forum for French cars or even singing their praises.
Simple truth is that they stopped offering what was wanted. We, the great unwashed, who buy ordinary cars to live our ordianry family lives and tow caravans went elseware in our droves to something that could do what we wanted at a price we could afford. Pheonix (and BMW) must have been blind and stupid not to see as everybody else could so clearly.