Pay as You go Road charge plans

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DervDonkey
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Post by DervDonkey »

GPS is not the only satellite ground position locator system, merely the most popular. I think the idea behind the Government's scheme is to store the positional data acquired over a period of time in the on-board black box, and squirt that data at regular intervals to a control centre via cellular radio, e.g mobile phone technology. The satellites (whatever system gets used) don't need to be altered at all.
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Post by howiedean »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FrenchLeave</i>

I've been trying to get my head around the control system that is proposed for this idea. We are told that the new black boxes to be fitted to every vehicle will communicate with GPS satellites, allowing the government (or its agents) to download the information regarding who's been where and when.
But GPS satellites are not proactive devices; they simply sit in geostatic orbit, each one sending out a unique positional radio signal. In other words, our black boxes in our cars can tell where the satellites are and from that work out their own position. There is no way that the satellites can work out where the vehicles are.
It should also be remembered that the satellite system is owned by the American military. They spent an enormous amount of money putting the equipment in orbit for their own purposes - essentially navigation and weapon targetting. I doubt that they would allow an outside agency to alter their satellites, even if that were possible.
Or does the government propose to put its own satellites in orbit? One would think that the enormous amount of money required would be better spent on improving the existing transport system.
I will be happy to be shot down by those of you who know better, but it seems to me that this is a bit of political kite flying, programming us so that we will accept something less awful and think we are well off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I think you are getting confused, satellite GPS use receivers only and position is calculated by triangulation. I think what the Government are proposing is that at certain points around the country the BLACK BOX will transmit positional information to control centres.
There is also another GPS system being developed by europe it's called GALILEO.
regards
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Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FrenchLeave</i>

I've been trying to get my head around the control system that is proposed for this idea. .....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The proposal is to use a European GPS system (yet to be implemented but the first satellites have been launched) which will give a more precise position than the current US one does. The black boxes will then communicate with the central database, how is not yet clear, possibly using the current GPRS cellphone system.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by citrojim</i>


Why do people insist on living in houses where there is no off-road parking and then clutter the street up with their vehicles? Why do developers still build new houses with no off-road parking?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Because the government and local authorities encourage this in order to cram as much housing in to the smallest area possible. Developers would rather build huge detached houses they can sell at a massive profit but they can't get planning permission unless they meet certain property-per-square-mile rules. So for every detached property with drive and double garage they have to bang up half a dozen flats with no parking area.
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Post by FrenchLeave »

"I think you are getting confused, satellite GPS use receivers only and position is calculated by triangulation."
Thank you, howiedean, for explaining to me how a GPS positioning system works, I've only been using it for ten years now on my boat since they switched Decca off. Might I suggest you reread my post. The only discrepancy appears to be concerning the method of information transfer, my only source of information was what I read in the newspapers and I am grateful for your greater knowledge concerning the method to be used - if they can get the black boxes designed and then fitted to every vehicle in England and Wales, the automatic cellphone calling system working and the data centre able to receive and collate the vast input without tripping itself up. As I said, it's political kite flying.
Incidentally, did you notice that Alastair Darling is an MP for a Scottish constituency and his proposed idea won't apply to Scotland?
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Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FrenchLeave</i>


Incidentally, did you notice that Alastair Darling is an MP for a Scottish constituency and his proposed idea won't apply to Scotland?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I did notice he was on the news last night trying to flog his mad scheme saying it would "cut traffic on the roads by up to 50%".
He may have a Scottish constituency but he lives in cloud cookoo land.
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Post by FrenchLeave »

Hang on a minute, I've just realised it's all possible!
"They" could insist upon being given our bank account details as part of the ID card info.. "They" could then automatically deduct the road fees from our accounts, say, once a month; this could also include a rental fee for the black box. If there was insufficient money in your account it would still be deducted, this would allow the banks to hit you with an overdraft fee. It could even be made a criminal offence, punishable by a hefty fine (to be paid to the Chancellor) for not having sufficient funds to meet the charges.
But they wouldn't do that, would they - after all, they do want to get re-elected.
Unless they were also going to cancel all future el...
I'm joking, of course .......
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Post by Forth »

Euro satellites.... And it is nowadays often the case that legislation imposed on us has been passed down to the British branch office from the EU or UN, but gets presented here as though it originated at Westminster. So as well as its police-state implications, could the road pricing be yet another cunning ploy by the -- on this occasion "greenie"-fronted -- Brussels maffia, to extort even more loot to fund the fatcat lifestyle and pensions of their top politicians and apparachiks....
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Post by Forth »

<font color="orange"><i>But they wouldn't do that, would they - after all, they do want to get re-elected. </i></font id="orange">
For "them" to lose an "election" would require the existence of some genuine, viable and effective opposition -- <i>which they seem increasingly unlikely to allow.</i>
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Post by rbruce1314 »

To make the detector in the car fail-safe it would have to have the same safeguards as the electronic tags they fit to criminals, which immediately makes all motorists no different from........
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Post by bxbodger »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To make the detector in the car fail-safe it would have to have the same safeguards as the electronic tags they fit to criminals<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Which is no safeguards at all, basically, which is why the scummers who are tagged just laugh at the tagging system........they love it- they can do what they like with them on!!
I have a few observations on "congestion", having just got back from 3 weeks hols driving around Europe.
Most concestion in the UK is artificially created by traffic 'management'. How many people have had the experience of a local set of lights failing, and the traffic immediately starting to flow better as a result-if anyone here regularly drives through Waltham Abbey they will know exactly what I mean!!
Outside my office window is the Leyton relief road-built at huge cost in the 80's with constant battles against tree huggers and squatters in derelict houses. Before the relief road, Leytonstone high road was jammed all day with through traffic, and, guess what, its STILL jammed all day, only worse- why? the worlds most bizzare bit of traffic management-southbound high road traffic is directed ACROSS northbound traffic, into a single lane one way system which is regularly blocked by buses and deliveries, and then BACK ACROSS the northbound traffic-with the obvious result of day and night long congestion, and its all just local traffic!!!
I read somewhere that the number of car journeys in central london, even pre congestion zone, was well below what it was in the seventies and eighties, but the gradual narrowing of roads by creating bus lanes, deliberate pinch points, etc, has had the effect of increasing congestion.
Its a viscous circle- put in a bus lane-creare congestion-something must be done!!-start road pricing......Red Kens congestion charging scheme isn't that at all-its pitched so people will still drive for the convenience: a true congestion charge would be fifty or eighty quid a day-there'd be no congestion then, but no revenue, either!!
Nearly every British town, no matter how small, has its one way and traffic lights- you don't get these abroad and you consequently get a bettoer flow of traffic- we drove from France into Switzerland and the British effect is immediately noticable- the first Swiss town we hit was festooned with traffic lights, one ways, and the consequent congestion. Off the ferry at Dover, up the hill towards Canterbury, what do you find in the middle of the night and the middle of nowhere? traffic lights!!!
French road pricing is a joy- empty autoroutes,even during the busy times, and all the way from Calais to Besancon on the peayage for abot £25. In the UK we pay a fiver just to go round Birmingham!!
There are plans to remove ALL the traffic management from one of the main roads in South Kensington as an experiment-it will be interesting to see the result.
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Post by Forth »

<font color="orange"><i>There are plans to remove ALL the traffic management from one of the main roads in South Kensington as an experiment-it will be interesting to see the result.</i></font id="orange">
Could be good, but they might (deliberately) sabotage such tests by going too far -- like for instance removing common-sense old things such as the white line in the middle of the road or cats eyes.
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Post by Forth »

<font color="orange"><i><b>Alastair Darling</b> is an MP for a Scottish constituency and his proposed idea won't apply to Scotland?
<font color="purple">-------------------------------------------------------------------</font id="purple">
I did notice he was on the news last night trying to flog his mad scheme saying it would "cut traffic on the roads by up to 50%".
He may have a Scottish constituency but he lives in cloud cookoo land.</i></font id="orange">
If memory serves, that cloud cookoo land isn't in his own constituency -- think it was him who in the 90s moved to live in a different area so as to get his son into a posher school.
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Post by Forth »

<font color="teal"><i>Lets stay and get our own county sorted. It's a great place really, it just has a few problems and a bit of radical, well discussed lateral and off-the-wall thought is needed to sort it.</i></font id="teal">
On reading about the government's "Brave Nu World" schemes for all-day child indoctrination and reprocessing centres (is TB modelling himself on Chairman Mao, or just Pol Potty?)... and that Sir John Gieve of the Home Office -- reputedly even more pc than stazi commissar Blair of the Met, and think I read he's a culty religious fundamentalist into the bargain -- could become Cabinet Secretary with severely enhanced powers.... fear it would need rather more force than thought alone to rescue the country now.
<i>As for the so-called parliamentary "opposition".... errr.... where is they?</i>
martyhopkirk

Post by martyhopkirk »

Im not worried - I have an old lead x-ray apron.....
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Post by Oscar Too »

The lighter side of the road-pricing plans. Especially the last one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4091870.stm
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