1.9TD juddering tickover

nick · Post by **nick** » 15 May 2005, 17:25

I've had my Xantia for 5 years now, and its always had an intermittant fault where soon after starting, but only in very cold weather, the idle is slightly rough for the first couple of minutes. Its sort of 'lumpy' and you can feel the juddering right through the car.
That in itself wasn't too much of a problem, but since last winter it is now juddering on tickover even in warm weather right up until the engine gets to about 75-80 degrees. Once the engine is fully warmed up the idle becomes smooth again.
The strange thing is that the car had generally been behaving itself last winter until I did a long motorway journey, after that the problem suddenly came back & was noticeably worse and has been ever since.
The cold start fast idle seems to be working fine, it holds the engine speed up over 1000 rpm until the temp gets to about 60C, then it drops to a bit below 900. I've tried cleaning the brown timing connector plug on the injector pump - disconnecting it does make the engine noticeably more rattley, and it seems to be doing what it should. Both the air & fuel filters have been changed recently and are clean. I've tried various brands of injector cleaner - no difference at all.
What makes this all the more annoying is that in all other respects the engine appears to be running perfectly! Performance is very good, no noticeable black smoke even when I floor it & it passes the MOT smoke test easily, it averages about 45-50 mpg on a run, starts easily, and uses no oil or water.
Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, but occasionally it has "good days" when the idle is completely smooth all the time, which makes me think this could be quite a simple problem to sort out if I just find what was causing it! I'm wondering if its an injector sticking slightly, they are still the originals and haven't been touched since the car was new.
Any suggestions of anything else I could check would be very welcome.

Post by **CitroJim** » 15 May 2005, 22:59

Nick,
All the TDs (and NAs for that matter) I have owned (5 now) have done this to a greater or lesser extent but only when cold from first start in the mornings.
My thought is that its caused by diesel bleeding out of the injector pump overnight and introducing a bit of air into the high pressure side which takes a few moments to bleed out on start-up. Likely a spot of wear in the pump.
The other thought is that you may have a minute air leak somewhere on the low pressure side that allows a bit of air to bleed in there. Priming bulb, filter housing lid and leakoff pipes are prime suspects for this kind of thing, along with the various banjo unions around the pump.
Have you tried a new fule filter?

Post by **Peter.N.** » 15 May 2005, 23:02

Do you get any white smoke when ticking over unevenly? if so it is probably low compression on one cylinder, most likely due to a valve not seating properly, or if not, it could be wear on the fuel injection pump as this could cause low fuel delivery to one cylinder. In any case if its OK when you are driving, I wouldn't worry about it.

nick · Post by **nick** » 16 May 2005, 00:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by citrojim

Nick,
All the TDs (and NAs for that matter) I have owned (5 now) have done this to a greater or lesser extent but only when cold from first start in the mornings.
My thought is that its caused by diesel bleeding out of the injector pump overnight and introducing a bit of air into the high pressure side which takes a few moments to bleed out on start-up. Likely a spot of wear in the pump.
The other thought is that you may have a minute air leak somewhere on the low pressure side that allows a bit of air to bleed in there. Priming bulb, filter housing lid and leakoff pipes are prime suspects for this kind of thing, along with the various banjo unions around the pump.
Have you tried a new fule filter?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks. The odd thing with this problem when it only occurred in cold weather was that the car would start and run fine initially. It was only once it had been driven up the road half a mile say, then stopped at a junction, that the slight juddering would begin. Possibly a case of it sucking air in somewhere & it taking a while to reach the pump??
There is the occasional tiny air bubble in the clear pipe from the filter to the pump, but this seems to be the case whether the car is displaying the fault or not, and its always done this since I bought the car.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 16 May 2005, 00:15

The obvious thing to suggest is the glowplugs, but if they were really bad I don't suppose that it would start at all. Next to consider would be that something is worn, and getting worse hence only happening in cold weather and now happening in warm weather.
I'd be changing glow plugs first if it were mine, then maybe I'd look into getting the injectors done, and after that perhaps the compresion needs checking, it could be HG problems.

nick · Post by **nick** » 16 May 2005, 00:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peter.N.

Do you get any white smoke when ticking over unevenly? if so it is probably low compression on one cylinder, most likely due to a valve not seating properly, or if not, it could be wear on the fuel injection pump as this could cause low fuel delivery to one cylinder. In any case if its OK when you are driving, I wouldn't worry about it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks, theres a short blast of black smoke when first starting but nothing at all once the engine is running. Its amazingly smoke-free really.
Perhaps I should stop worrying !?

nick · Post by **nick** » 16 May 2005, 00:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kowalski

The obvious thing to suggest is the glowplugs, but if they were really bad I don't suppose that it would start at all. Next to consider would be that something is worn, and getting worse hence only happening in cold weather and now happening in warm weather.
I'd be changing glow plugs first if it were mine, then maybe I'd look into getting the injectors done, and after that perhaps the compresion needs checking, it could be HG problems.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I replaced the glowplugs soon after buying the car, using cheapies - big mistake! Then I fitted some beru ones which were far better. Its not been a problem to start as such, just doesn't seem to like warming up.
The injectors are certainly a possibility. My dad's Xantia TD needed new injectors at only 80k or so, but that used to produce loads of black smoke which mine doesn't.
I don't think its the hg, or at least I hope not, no bubbles in the coolant or pressurising as far as I can see.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 16 May 2005, 01:27

You should be able to get the injectors cleaned / retipped cheaply. Some time ago I was quoted £20 per injector for cleaning with an additional £20 per injector if they needed new tips.
With those costs in mind it might be cheaper to buy re-con/exchange injectors from GSF.

nick · Post by **nick** » 16 May 2005, 02:32

Yep, I think some re-con injectors would be worth a try.

ebod · Post by **ebod** » 16 May 2005, 05:03

Before you blow loads of dosh on injector cleaing and glow pugs, I strongly recommend you follow Citrojims advice.
For abour £4<>6 quid you can get a new LP hose kit which is basically a short length of hose and a couple of end bungs.
My 98 Synergie was always lumpy for about 30secs. With the recent return pipes changed it is now lumpy for about...2 secs

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 16 May 2005, 12:56

Which injector pump have you got? Is it an electronic one? If its the Delphi its a cousin of the old Roto-diesel and I think you'll find that the return pipes make no difference at all. On the Bosch mechanical they do.
These things should start up and run smoothly - both ours do (89 BX TD and 94 ZX 1.9D) if a bit slowly when very cold and behave as normal long before the temperature gauge reaches operating temperature. Glowplugs should stay on after starting but only for a maximum of 45 seconds to reduce emmissions.
jeremy

nick · Post by **nick** » 17 May 2005, 02:51

Its the Bosch pump, but the later version with the timing controlled controlled by ECU (but with the exhaust cat removed and the EGR disconnected).
Would the return pipes really make that much difference? I had the misfortune to be stuck in heavy traffic on the way home tonight and the engine stayed fairly juddery on tickover for about 15-20 minutes until the engine got up to around 80C, then it was fine after that.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 17 May 2005, 04:22

Apparently so. I've had one split on the ZX twice (should have done it properly first time) and it merely leaked but its a Roto-Diesel.
Somewhere there is a discussion on the subject.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=9187
jeremy

nick · Post by **nick** » 17 May 2005, 23:58

Well I may try replacing the leakoff pipes first then, its certainly easy & cheap enough to give this a go before spending money on injectors.
Thanks to all who replied.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 21 Jan 2006, 19:37

Hi,

So, what did you do. Did it cure the problem.

I've been through a few threads on the lumpy start and white smoke problem on a td engine, but they don't often give feedback on whether the recommendations worked.

In this case I think Nick went off to try changing the injector leak off return pipes.

Please don't forget to let us know if the problem was fixed.

thanks,

Kev