Police in the South - Idiots!!

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rbruce1314
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Post by rbruce1314 »

It's all down to having a POLICY. A few years ago Avon and Somerset police took 4 Sierra 4x4 cosworths and breathed on them. within 3 months three of them had been written off in single vehicle accidents! The policy was then to withdraw them until drivers had had improved training. This has never happened again to this force.
Without a policy drivers simply make up their own ways of getting the neccesary practice- with it the events above are quite legal, as well as necessary.
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Post by Kowalski »

Judges don't always get things right, courts don't get things right either, there is such a thing as an appeal court because the system isn't perfect. I'm not doubting the honesty or the integrity of the judge but judges are human beings and human beings make mistakes, as do police officers.
Often the prosecution will put forward their case in a less than vigourous manor e.g. when there is a conflict of interest like convicting one of their own. If the defense barrister put forwards his case in a convincing manor and the prosecution didn't, regardless of the facts of the case the correct outcome might not happen.
I do think there is a need for police drivers to be trained, do you think that 2am on deserted motorways, alone in the dark and at 159mph is the best time and place for it to happen? As I said, the things that are difficult about driving at speed are not the deserted motorways but the less than perfect roads with bad drivers, pedestrians and other hazards on them. There is not one law for the police and another for the public, there is only one law and one legal system and it HAS to be applied consistently.
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Post by bxbodger »

I don't know about high speeds, as I have a BX17RD n/a- the cops could catch me without getting out of second, but there is an analogy to something I do know- rock'n'roll.
You can play in your bedroom all you like, you can spend years in rehersal studios, garages etc,you can be the best guitarist or drummer in the world,but its just not the same!!!!There is NO substitute for live experience on a REAL stage or in a REAL pub, even if it is only in front of the proverbial two men and a dog....and believe me, I've been there!!!
I would tend to agree with the traffic cops, even a quiet early morning motorway is going to be better than a circuit- what the traffic cop needs to know is how his new cop car is going to react at speed on a surface rutted by HGV's, over white lines, how fast he can safely go on a long motorway bend on which he may be required to pursue a fleeing felon, none of which can be simulated on a track, and its going to be easier to get up to the neccessary speeds in the early morning when its quiet- there would be no point, for example, of an M25 patrol officer trying out his new car at 8a.m or 6p.m.-he's going to wait until 3 or 4 a.m!!
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Post by rbruce1314 »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>
I do think there is a need for police drivers to be trained, do you think that 2am on deserted motorways, alone in the dark and at 159mph is the best time and place for it to happen?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If you were an aircraft test pilot proving a new plane, would you try full out banking at max. speed without first seeing what it would do in a straight line?
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Post by Kowalski »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rbruce1314</i>
If you were an aircraft test pilot proving a new plane, would you try full out banking at max. speed without first seeing what it would do in a straight line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
No, I'd test it at a lower speed first, in airspace that was clear and had no chance of anybody unexpected being in it.
The Vectra GSI is a extensively tested production car, not an experimental aircraft.
What this argument comes down to is whether or not this police officer was out for a joyride or not. If he was out for a joyride (which is what I believe) he should be banned from driving and sacked for lieing about it. Even if he wasn't joyriding, questions should be asked about the situation and the speeds. No written guidlines exist so he was doing something that wasn't specifically written down in the manual.
If we take the argument that since all of his colleagues do the same thing and its the done thing, since a large percentage of drivers speed then by the same logic all speeding should be legal.
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Post by fastandfurryous »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>

What this argument comes down to is whether or not this police officer was out for a joyride or not. If he was out for a joyride (which is what I believe) he should be banned from driving and sacked for lieing about it. Even if he wasn't joyriding, questions should be asked about the situation and the speeds.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just glad that in this case, it has no relevance whatsoever. You have no clue about exactly what he was doing on that journey. Maybe he was enjoying it... is that a crime? to enjoy certain aspects of your job? If so, then I'm in big trouble. I've no doubt that even if he was enjoying it, he was learning from it too.
Personally, I think you're just miffed that he gets to drive at 159MPH and you don't.
I think a good few questions have been asked about the "situation and speeds" after all... it's a court case! I don't think it could be more under scruitany if it tried!
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Post by fastandfurryous »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>

[quote]If we take the argument that since all of his colleagues do the same thing and its the done thing, since a large percentage of drivers speed then by the same logic all speeding should be legal.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Your logic is fatally flawed. Police drives are legally permitted to ignore the speed limit whilst on police business. Joe public is not. PC Mark Milton was on Police business, taking the initiative to familiarise himself with his new cars handling at high speed. End of story.
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Post by Kowalski »

I have no interest in driving any faster than I drive, it just uses more fuel and costs me more money. I've never been fined or stopped because of my speed and my licence is clean.
What I don't like is the double standard that has appeared. The police (yes, the police are one of the partners in a safety camera partnership) are putting speed cameras everywhere and saying speeding is bad but at the same time they've got their drivers going at more than double the national limit and being encouraged to do so (PC. Mark Milton words not mine), this stinks of hypocracy to me.
What I want to see from this is each police force issuing very specific guidlines about when and where and under what circumstances police drivers can "hone their skills". I want to have confidence that there is no room for corruption and double standards, this would lend a lot of weight to the "speeding is bad" message that they are trying to put forwards.
On another note, I often find myself following plain white cars with "Police advanced driver training" written on the back of them. I say following rather than "being overtaken by" because in one particular stretch or road with a 30 mph limit on it, they slow down well in advance of the speed limit and it maintain flawlessly, rather different behavior to what went on in Shropshire.
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Post by fastandfurryous »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>

On another note, I often find myself following plain white cars with "Police advanced driver training" written on the back of them. I say following rather than "being overtaken by" because in one particular stretch or road with a 30 mph limit on it, they slow down well in advance of the speed limit and it maintain flawlessly, rather different behavior to what went on in Shropshire.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
...and your point here is what? Driver training encompasses a large variety of different types of training. Some of it is at speed limits, some of it is at higher speeds. (and some of it at much lower speeds I'm sure) I'm quite sure that PC Milton has done all of it, several times.
Your argument throughout this seems to have moved fairly radically from "he should have been prosecuted" to "why isn't there a policy". This is one of the major questions to come out of the court case, and to which there is currently no answer.
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Post by Forth »

No prob.... Seems quite straightforward, really... the Police serve the Government... and the Government reckons it owns the country complete with population and thus can ignore whatever laws it imposes on other people... and extends that ability to its loyal commissars just so long as they abide by the Government line.
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Post by alexp-j »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by macaroni</i>

One question I still feel is unanswered...
WHAT WAS IN THE BOOT ALEX??
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You mean apart from the corpse wrapped in a carpet? [:p]
i usually carry round the usual Pug toolkit. ie cable ties, leccy tape, a few tools wd40 and a pair of totectors from work.
The rest of the boot is mostly taken up with a comedy bass tube installed (badly) by the previous owner.
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Post by adamskibx »

<i>Quote fastandfurious </i>"Personally, I think you're just miffed that he gets to drive at 159MPH and you don't". - Damn right I am!! But, technically, I could- id just become a Police officer! Problem solved. Thats what annoys me about the Police. Instant status, instantly above the law, power hungry mindsets etc etc. Thats why I would never become a part of the Police force- I think I have a pretty average level of criminal activity in my life, ie 35 in a 30 zone every now and then maybe etc etc, and so do the Police- its wrong that you should be able to boss people round when your allowed to do almost anythng you want and get away with it. Unfortunately they are needed and they need a certain amount, so they are bound to recruit 80% idiots, and 20% straight down the line, law obiding, law beleiving, nice helpful individuals.
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Post by rossd »

Ok then. Police driver who has practised on a track and has no experience of driving fast in real world conditions. Your mother/wife/child/spouse has just been hit by a car driven by a drink driver. The driver is being violent and is about to leave the scene. Damn right I would like to have a police driver who can respond quickly, has experience of his car driving fast in those conditions and will get to the scene FAST. Dont knock em. You might one day need them.
I'm sorry but it makes me mad, the amount of people that dislike the police. adamskibx, how many police officers do you actually know?? I can tell you (from personal experience) that your view is extremely misinformed.
" Thats what annoys me about the Police. Instant status, instantly above the law, power hungry mindsets etc etc. "
Total rubbish. I dont know a single policeman who is in the job for those reasons. My girlfriends parents are both in the traffic police and as such I get to meet many of their police friends who they solcialise with. They are the nicest people in the world.
People bash police because its a fashionable thing to do. I couldnt really care if this policeman chap got away with this so called "offence", but you lot moaning about it, its just plain silly.
These people do a job which is not one to be envied. They deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis and try their best to do their jobs to the best of their ability. They are beaten up by criminals and generally lead dangerous lives and some on here are mad because they broke a speed limit? Get over it, it happened. End of story. You cant do anything about it and I for one am glad of that, as some on here would rather suspend this chap for what he did. Police are a rare comodity these days and I admire the job they do.
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Post by martyhopkirk »

Now I have mentioned this on the other thread - and i will not mention it again (prommise) - I have few qualms with the excuse that he was testing the car and its limitations, I accept what the judge sais about the lack of policy. But to travel at 89MPH in a built up area where teh limit is 30mph.
Certainly Lancashire pod have a policy of withdrawing pursuit when speeds top 60 in a 30 zone and continuing to follow / observe by air. So why the feck was this guy doing just shy of 90 when there are pedestrians, school children, deaf people crossing the streets. Having seen first hand (on too many occasions) the mangled mess a car will make of a body when connecting at high (and not so high) speed I feel the judge missed compleetly this behaviour.
Frankly - and I am not anti-police - the driver needs a bloody good arse kicking for this blatantly stupid behaviour, I dont car how finely tuned he thinks his driving skils are, medicine has proved that your visual perception is limited and that even with constant eye movement you are only likely to be able to process 3 moving items at any one time - so when the fourth moving item steps into the road - wallop!
Look I know Im having a rant - but I have witnessed twice the mess made by a speeding police car hitting a pedestrian - the last one made a fair recovery but suffered fractured skull, clavicle, bilateral fractured femurs bilateral coles writ fractures, pelvis, ruptured spleen, torn liver and needed hours and hours of surgery. Yep the car had his two tones on, sadly the bloke hit was hard of hearing and when he set off crossing the road the cop car was not in view - he had taken only a few steps before it hit him, catapulting him nearly 50 yards into oncoming traffic where he was hit again. The car which hit him was not involved in a chase.
No I am not saying stop this cop from working, Ross is quite right good police are a rare comodity - but christ on a bike, this bloke needs a good talking too about driving like that in a built up zone. Im perfectly aware of the arguments for and against this incident - but would you like someone tanking along at that speed down your road?
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Post by ActivaV6uk »

Ok I’ve been reading this for the last couple of days now and I have to say its one of the most interesting threads we have had on here for ages.
In my opinion he shouldn’t have got away with it, he needed at least a warning that training must at least be called through to the HQ and other officers informed other wise its just a joy ride (and that is coming from the man sat opposite me who is a police driver with training one all cars the Warwickshire police force use). This does happen and normally the issue is dealt with in house.
What tends to annoy people is that police officers can get away with things we cant, i can give you an example.
Off duty police officer gets into a fight with his wife, he is so mad he needs to blow off steam and takes the car out for a run. He drives at speeds reaching 90miles per hour on a 40 mile per hour road and there is only one other car on the road, he then gets to the next village and turns the car around at the first roundabout, on the way back driving at approximately 70 in a 40 he swerves to avoid a rabbit in the road, mounts the curb the car takes off and roles down the side of the road destroying 1/4 of a mile of dry wall (houses on the other side and luckily the car didn’t leave that side of the road). the driver wasn’t wearing his seatbelt and hit the windscreen, and when he came round he found him self curled up in the boot of his estate with some of his police friends trying to get him out of the car before the ruptured fuel tank has a chance to go up.
These were country lanes strait ones but still in semi built up areas. His punishment was a clip round the ear by his superior officer having to write an apology letter to the person whose wall he destroyed (didn’t pay anything towards it as they decided to but up railings instead of the wall). That was it!
Those are the things that should be questioned...
Andy
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