Hi,
Here's a topic for debate (light the blue touch-paper!):
As an engineer I can't help wondering if the Xantia (and similar) suspension design isn't just a bad idea. If you cast your eyes down the forum every day, the majority of posts are concerning problems people are having with their Xantia / BX / XM suspension setup. Having never driven one of these cars, could somebody please tell me the virtues of such a scheme as all I can see is problems!! Is it more trouble than it's worth or is it actually quite good? Is it simply that the Citroen implementation is poorly designed or is such a solution inherently unreliable?
It makes me feel quite reassured sometimes that I drive a ZX with relatively normal suspension!
Cheers,
Chris
Xantia suspension - is it any good?
Moderator: RichardW
Talk about throwing the cat among the pigeons!
I'm no engineer but I know that the Xantia eats up bumps like nothing else and that I'd sooner do a DIY sphere replacement than mess about with coil springs and shock absorbers. As for unreliable, I've done 90,000 miles across two Xantias and never had a problem.
I'm no engineer but I know that the Xantia eats up bumps like nothing else and that I'd sooner do a DIY sphere replacement than mess about with coil springs and shock absorbers. As for unreliable, I've done 90,000 miles across two Xantias and never had a problem.
-
JohnD
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 2632
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- My Cars: 2010 Citroen C5-X7 tourer
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Hi Chris - If the hydraulic system is looked after, then there's none better. I bought a BX TZDturbo diesel in 1991 and kept it until 1998. Until the octopus split just before I sold it, it gave no trouble whatsoever. It had its fluid changed every three years and also its spheres regassed every three years. The suspension legs were changed at five. After seven years the ride was superb.
I almost forget to mention the suspension's really great benefit. Hang the caravan on the back and the rear of the car rises up to compensate for the extra weight. Not many cars, other than Cits will do that!
Edited by - JohnD on 27 Sep 2002 20:44:09
I almost forget to mention the suspension's really great benefit. Hang the caravan on the back and the rear of the car rises up to compensate for the extra weight. Not many cars, other than Cits will do that!
Edited by - JohnD on 27 Sep 2002 20:44:09
Having had a CX and then a Xantia, I would say that the system is very robust and gives an excellent ride, with problems extremely rare, providing that the LHM fluid and N2 filled spheres are changed regularly (every 2 years for the fluid and 3 to 4 for the spheres
In any citroen with spheres older than that you can expect the ride to be well off the best achievable, with what seems like a fairly linear deterioration from new spheres to old ones.
The system is obviously more complex than a set of springs, but there should be no reason why a properly maintained citroen should give any trouble and you do get a great ride
The logic goes like this :
All modern cars have power steering and hence a pump. They also all have a brake servo, most have ABS and many have brake power proportioning systems, and A/C
So using the hydraulics to power the suspension is not such a great increase in complexity as it first appears
Don't forget that the self-levelling feature is pretty handy too!
The bottom line is this : are you willing to pay 100 to 200 quid every 4 years for a better ride than on other cars, and the self-levelling feature?
If not get a Ford or Toyota or whatever
Mark
In any citroen with spheres older than that you can expect the ride to be well off the best achievable, with what seems like a fairly linear deterioration from new spheres to old ones.
The system is obviously more complex than a set of springs, but there should be no reason why a properly maintained citroen should give any trouble and you do get a great ride
The logic goes like this :
All modern cars have power steering and hence a pump. They also all have a brake servo, most have ABS and many have brake power proportioning systems, and A/C
So using the hydraulics to power the suspension is not such a great increase in complexity as it first appears
Don't forget that the self-levelling feature is pretty handy too!
The bottom line is this : are you willing to pay 100 to 200 quid every 4 years for a better ride than on other cars, and the self-levelling feature?
If not get a Ford or Toyota or whatever
Mark
Chris,
I have owned Cits for around 18 years; all hydraulic suspension ones. I also do all my own work so I don't have to put up with (and refuse to be conned) by repairers using the hydraulics as a tool to inflate their bank accounts. It could be argued that I have been lucky; well I don't believe anyone could be this lucky. In our family we have 3 BXs and 3 CXs and there have been or still is in varying stages of restoration, 4 other CXs and an earlier BX. The only time I have had to spend serious money on the hydraulics was when I had my business and had to have someone else do the servicing; how coincidental. I ended up rectifying his work myself and stopped using other people and the problems ceased. That has to tell you something.
I personally believe that Citroen have been their own worst enemies by not embarking on a systematic training scheme and official accreditation for their dealer service personnel & coming down like a ton of bricks (up to revoking franchises) for those found consistently breaching their set codes of pratice. Had they done this, I would reckon that today, we would be seeing the hydraulic suspension in cars as common place instead of being phased out as seems to be happening; it would be like 4 wheel disc brakes..almost essential. Over here a few years ago there was a production car race at Bathurst at Easter time. Peter Brock, at the time was Australias top touring car driver. He drove an Mi16. Peter McLeod, good driver but not quite in Brocks league was driving a BX 16V. Being in Oz this would have been a series 2 (catted version) and Brock commented that he could not catch the Cit through the corners because it "cornered as flat as a can of sardines." Brock being Brock would have been driving a manufacturers car, whereas McLeod a was privateer. We have just started using a BX16V in competition over here and the big advantage is the suspension. We can drive the car to the race meet and be in limo comfort, spend 5 minutes swapping spheres and have a car that will still ride acceptably but will be stiff enough to float wheels round corners.
In my opinion, the hydraulic system is by far more simple and longer lasting than the tin spring variety but has been let down over the years by shoddy service, lack of maintenance and repairers using the perceived "complications" as a way of extracting large wads of cash from people who have been led to believe that a pump sucking & blowing oil into a ball of steel with a bladder inflated with nitro and passing through a tap (height corrector) can somehow produce all these mystical problems that only a garage with a double chevron emblem on the door has the supernatural ability to exorcise at great cost.
Check out this string as just one example of how dealers continue to assasinate their own businesses.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=1353
You can't blame the designers or the manufacturers..lay it where it belongs, at the feet of a lot of those servicing them.
Alan S
I have owned Cits for around 18 years; all hydraulic suspension ones. I also do all my own work so I don't have to put up with (and refuse to be conned) by repairers using the hydraulics as a tool to inflate their bank accounts. It could be argued that I have been lucky; well I don't believe anyone could be this lucky. In our family we have 3 BXs and 3 CXs and there have been or still is in varying stages of restoration, 4 other CXs and an earlier BX. The only time I have had to spend serious money on the hydraulics was when I had my business and had to have someone else do the servicing; how coincidental. I ended up rectifying his work myself and stopped using other people and the problems ceased. That has to tell you something.
I personally believe that Citroen have been their own worst enemies by not embarking on a systematic training scheme and official accreditation for their dealer service personnel & coming down like a ton of bricks (up to revoking franchises) for those found consistently breaching their set codes of pratice. Had they done this, I would reckon that today, we would be seeing the hydraulic suspension in cars as common place instead of being phased out as seems to be happening; it would be like 4 wheel disc brakes..almost essential. Over here a few years ago there was a production car race at Bathurst at Easter time. Peter Brock, at the time was Australias top touring car driver. He drove an Mi16. Peter McLeod, good driver but not quite in Brocks league was driving a BX 16V. Being in Oz this would have been a series 2 (catted version) and Brock commented that he could not catch the Cit through the corners because it "cornered as flat as a can of sardines." Brock being Brock would have been driving a manufacturers car, whereas McLeod a was privateer. We have just started using a BX16V in competition over here and the big advantage is the suspension. We can drive the car to the race meet and be in limo comfort, spend 5 minutes swapping spheres and have a car that will still ride acceptably but will be stiff enough to float wheels round corners.
In my opinion, the hydraulic system is by far more simple and longer lasting than the tin spring variety but has been let down over the years by shoddy service, lack of maintenance and repairers using the perceived "complications" as a way of extracting large wads of cash from people who have been led to believe that a pump sucking & blowing oil into a ball of steel with a bladder inflated with nitro and passing through a tap (height corrector) can somehow produce all these mystical problems that only a garage with a double chevron emblem on the door has the supernatural ability to exorcise at great cost.
Check out this string as just one example of how dealers continue to assasinate their own businesses.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=1353
You can't blame the designers or the manufacturers..lay it where it belongs, at the feet of a lot of those servicing them.
Alan S
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
As an engineer you ought to be able to see the hydropneumatic system for the engineering solution that it is, and not treat or think of it as a quirk of the Citroen mark like so many people do.
A suspension system that firms up proportionally to the load carried, yet the car still maintains the same attitude on the road and can still soak up the bumps, plus a power braking system that adjust rear braking effort to match the load.
What bloody fantastic ideas, no wonder they have built and sold millions of such cars.
When you take a closer look at the system and its components, its hard to think of a better way of doing things.
Proper maintenance will prevent most problems occuring that are talked about on this and other lists, such maintenance is almost childs play anyway, anyone with a modicum of common sense, mechanical ability and a usefull tool kit is well capable of doing it him or her self.
Dave
p.s I would be happy if the electrics were as good as the hydraulics.
A suspension system that firms up proportionally to the load carried, yet the car still maintains the same attitude on the road and can still soak up the bumps, plus a power braking system that adjust rear braking effort to match the load.
What bloody fantastic ideas, no wonder they have built and sold millions of such cars.
When you take a closer look at the system and its components, its hard to think of a better way of doing things.
Proper maintenance will prevent most problems occuring that are talked about on this and other lists, such maintenance is almost childs play anyway, anyone with a modicum of common sense, mechanical ability and a usefull tool kit is well capable of doing it him or her self.
Dave
p.s I would be happy if the electrics were as good as the hydraulics.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
I was sat at work yesterday browsing the forum and just couldn't help thinking "Why so many problems about the same thing?" Having never driven one, I haven't experienced the benefits of ride and handling, but if its as good as it sounds, then I guess the designers got the performance aspect right! My brother used to work at a dealership and drove many and I always remember him saying that the Xantia Activa was one of the best handling cars he'd ever driven. Also, given the crazy video of the old Cit on the Paris Dakka rally still motoring along at 100mph+ with a wheel missing, it has other benefits too!! Point taken. (So why don't they use hydropneumatic in F1 / GT etc? Maybe they can't sacrifice the additional weight?)
This simply leaves reliability, maintainability and service interval. OK to summarise it sounds from what you're all saying that with regular servicing these systems are ultimately pretty reliable. Perhaps they require more simple servicing than a conventional setup but if properly serviced are a good solution to the 'suspension problem'. Does that sound about right?
(Dave) I'm not an automotive engineer, so don't know and understand all the details of the implementation (hence the question!), but was just asking the 'fit for purpose' type questions that we are programmed to ask! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I understand the basic concepts involved and was interested how well they translated into good experiences for the driver as well as postings on the forum!!
Thanks again for all your input, its interesting to read about your experiences!
Cheers,
Chris
I was sat at work yesterday browsing the forum and just couldn't help thinking "Why so many problems about the same thing?" Having never driven one, I haven't experienced the benefits of ride and handling, but if its as good as it sounds, then I guess the designers got the performance aspect right! My brother used to work at a dealership and drove many and I always remember him saying that the Xantia Activa was one of the best handling cars he'd ever driven. Also, given the crazy video of the old Cit on the Paris Dakka rally still motoring along at 100mph+ with a wheel missing, it has other benefits too!! Point taken. (So why don't they use hydropneumatic in F1 / GT etc? Maybe they can't sacrifice the additional weight?)
This simply leaves reliability, maintainability and service interval. OK to summarise it sounds from what you're all saying that with regular servicing these systems are ultimately pretty reliable. Perhaps they require more simple servicing than a conventional setup but if properly serviced are a good solution to the 'suspension problem'. Does that sound about right?
(Dave) I'm not an automotive engineer, so don't know and understand all the details of the implementation (hence the question!), but was just asking the 'fit for purpose' type questions that we are programmed to ask! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I understand the basic concepts involved and was interested how well they translated into good experiences for the driver as well as postings on the forum!!
Thanks again for all your input, its interesting to read about your experiences!
Cheers,
Chris
Chris,
Weight may be a bit of a problem but also in a competitive environment load on the motor due to it having to drive a pump would also be considered. May sound a bit nit picking, but I once went to a fellow competitors place once just before a championship meeting to find him weighing pedals & mats as well as rims & things so they can get very paranoid about things like this.
It's a pity that we can't post photos on this site but I have pics of me carting a fair sized load of firewood in the boot of my CX, towing a 2 ton trailer fully laden and also dragging a tree about 30 foot long. I also tow a 16 foot caravan as well as a 16 foot half cabin cruiser all with a 1979 model CX and in all cases I have the safety of a car riding level & brakes adjusted to the load. I have driven this car at 140kph with a tyre shredding, quite safely and in the past have driven through flood waters that would have stopped a 4WD but I could jack the car up above the water height.
Regarding service, I was under the car the other day & noticed a return line, rubber, that was cracked due to age (23 years). I gave it a push and it started to leak so I grabbed a pair of cutters, disconnected it, trimmed it back & refitted; a 2 minute job. That is the type of service required when age starts to creep up on them; preventative maintenance. Hope that demonstrates the basics of how they work & last.
Alan S
Weight may be a bit of a problem but also in a competitive environment load on the motor due to it having to drive a pump would also be considered. May sound a bit nit picking, but I once went to a fellow competitors place once just before a championship meeting to find him weighing pedals & mats as well as rims & things so they can get very paranoid about things like this.
It's a pity that we can't post photos on this site but I have pics of me carting a fair sized load of firewood in the boot of my CX, towing a 2 ton trailer fully laden and also dragging a tree about 30 foot long. I also tow a 16 foot caravan as well as a 16 foot half cabin cruiser all with a 1979 model CX and in all cases I have the safety of a car riding level & brakes adjusted to the load. I have driven this car at 140kph with a tyre shredding, quite safely and in the past have driven through flood waters that would have stopped a 4WD but I could jack the car up above the water height.
Regarding service, I was under the car the other day & noticed a return line, rubber, that was cracked due to age (23 years). I gave it a push and it started to leak so I grabbed a pair of cutters, disconnected it, trimmed it back & refitted; a 2 minute job. That is the type of service required when age starts to creep up on them; preventative maintenance. Hope that demonstrates the basics of how they work & last.
Alan S
Just waved bye-bye to an HDi Xantia after 100 000 miles, great engine (110bhp), suspension excellent when new, needed 4 spheres at 80 000 (approx), fluid changed at 75 000 (as per schedule). Two ride height correctors fitted. Suspension "creaked" after about 70 000 miles.
Cit should specify lubricating linkages as part of the service schedule.
Drove through two floods on pumped up suspension that would have drowned a "normal" car.
Best memory? Driving through France (French diesel is far better than the UK stuff, Michelin tyres are silent on French tarmac), fully laden, three bikes on the back, suspension level, genuine 100 mph plus (300+ miles of autoroute in less than 3 hours), and still the French sweep past in all manner of vehicles, usually 3ft away from the car in front!
If Cit want to improve the image of fluid suspension:
Specify lubrication of linkages at regular service intervals
Replace spheres when the fluid is changed (at 75 000 on the Xantia)
Offer no-fee diagnostics at short notice.
Now have Mondeo, any garage can work on a Mondeo. Ride is jarring and uncomfortable on anything other than a smooth surface.
Tried a 2.5 XM diesel a while back, real magic carpet experience.
How reliable are XM/Xantia/CX/BX in France? Do the French garages provide a better service than UK garages (shouldn't be too difficult)
To summarise: Fluid suspension = unbeatable when it works, but UK garages can't provide reasonable maintenance/repairs (usually)
M
Cit should specify lubricating linkages as part of the service schedule.
Drove through two floods on pumped up suspension that would have drowned a "normal" car.
Best memory? Driving through France (French diesel is far better than the UK stuff, Michelin tyres are silent on French tarmac), fully laden, three bikes on the back, suspension level, genuine 100 mph plus (300+ miles of autoroute in less than 3 hours), and still the French sweep past in all manner of vehicles, usually 3ft away from the car in front!
If Cit want to improve the image of fluid suspension:
Specify lubrication of linkages at regular service intervals
Replace spheres when the fluid is changed (at 75 000 on the Xantia)
Offer no-fee diagnostics at short notice.
Now have Mondeo, any garage can work on a Mondeo. Ride is jarring and uncomfortable on anything other than a smooth surface.
Tried a 2.5 XM diesel a while back, real magic carpet experience.
How reliable are XM/Xantia/CX/BX in France? Do the French garages provide a better service than UK garages (shouldn't be too difficult)
To summarise: Fluid suspension = unbeatable when it works, but UK garages can't provide reasonable maintenance/repairs (usually)
M
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n/a
The ride is unbeatable, brakes are superb & the problems are in fact very few - no god-awful springs to compress, no shockers to change every year no 'void-bushes' [the curse of the Ford Siera] to replace every 8 weeks, no exhausts ripped off by speed bumps; can go camping without dragging your back bumper along the tarmac; can change a tyre without a jack; can drive at 70mph on a fromt wheel blow-out SAFELY. It rides the same on noload, full load, gross overload. The problem is, that it's a bit complicated & problems are so rare that no single person seems to have experience of all the occasional problems & Citroen don't help since they won't give out information about how the damned system works! That's why there are so many posts on this issue of 'suspension/ hydropneumatics.
Yes, I think the hydro suspension is complicated when you
are not used to it. If someone has never worked on one of
these cars, I think reading through the data, or even a
quick fact sheet is essential. I took me a while to get used
to all the quirks. As with anything though, you learn and
get the right tools etc and it becomes easier. It did occur
to me the other day why do spheres fail so quickly when the
not to dissimilar Metro, MGF etc hydragas units seem to last
for ever?
Is the hydro suspension worth it? In my opinion, overall, yes.
It makes the car interesting and different from the Mondeos
and Vectras of this world. It is a bit more work and can go
wrong, but a Xantia on coil springs would be a Peugeot 405/406.
Good all round cars of course, but they're conventional. I
suppose if you want a car that's a bit sophisticated it's going
to be a bit more complicated.
are not used to it. If someone has never worked on one of
these cars, I think reading through the data, or even a
quick fact sheet is essential. I took me a while to get used
to all the quirks. As with anything though, you learn and
get the right tools etc and it becomes easier. It did occur
to me the other day why do spheres fail so quickly when the
not to dissimilar Metro, MGF etc hydragas units seem to last
for ever?
Is the hydro suspension worth it? In my opinion, overall, yes.
It makes the car interesting and different from the Mondeos
and Vectras of this world. It is a bit more work and can go
wrong, but a Xantia on coil springs would be a Peugeot 405/406.
Good all round cars of course, but they're conventional. I
suppose if you want a car that's a bit sophisticated it's going
to be a bit more complicated.
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RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
- Posts: 10893
- Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 1003
Most of the suspension questions on this forum are of 1 of 3 natures:
1. How does this black (or should that be green!!) magic work? - these are usually easily answered in a few posts.
2. I / my mechanic (who didn't ask question 1) have buggered about with some suspension component or other and now it doesn't work - what should I do (and why is this suspension so unreliable?) - posts are usually answered, but treated with disdain, especially when the poster doesn't take the advice on board, and moans about the cost/complexity/'unreliablity'
3. My suspension is 10 years old, and has seen no maintenance, and is now playing up, what should I do? You wouldn't expect your engine to last 10 years without attention, so why should the suspension?(usual forum response!)
It is very very rare these days that a problem arises that could not have been prevented by a little bit of routine maintainance.
Anyway, who wants to be the same as everybody else and ride along on steel springs of all things, and not be able to put 5 people and all their luggage in the car, and have it still at exactly the right level for optimum handling / grip??
Course, we're preaching mostly to the converted here.
Richard
One day everybody will understand....
1. How does this black (or should that be green!!) magic work? - these are usually easily answered in a few posts.
2. I / my mechanic (who didn't ask question 1) have buggered about with some suspension component or other and now it doesn't work - what should I do (and why is this suspension so unreliable?) - posts are usually answered, but treated with disdain, especially when the poster doesn't take the advice on board, and moans about the cost/complexity/'unreliablity'
3. My suspension is 10 years old, and has seen no maintenance, and is now playing up, what should I do? You wouldn't expect your engine to last 10 years without attention, so why should the suspension?(usual forum response!)
It is very very rare these days that a problem arises that could not have been prevented by a little bit of routine maintainance.
Anyway, who wants to be the same as everybody else and ride along on steel springs of all things, and not be able to put 5 people and all their luggage in the car, and have it still at exactly the right level for optimum handling / grip??
Course, we're preaching mostly to the converted here.
Richard
One day everybody will understand....