Inspired by Jonathans' BX HG failure, it now looks like project BX has tossed its toys out of the pram too.
The problem is a large coolant loss from the hole at the top of the header tank, with coolant being sprayed over the battery and gearbox.
Now, theres a few odd things about this, so I shall list what I've done so far and what has possibly led to this downfall.
1) The rad cap is new and is of the correct type. As is the water pump. The system has been bled several times (this is the nightmare BX TD with only 1 bleed point, top of the rad, though)
2)Last week I had cause to accelerate quite hard to avoid a lorry coming onto the M42. The temp gauge shot over 100 then the yellow "Warning Lamp of Death" (YWLD)illuminated for about 20 secs. I couldn't stop due to roadworks. The lamp went out and the gauge dropped to 90. I stopped when it was safe to do so, checked the level, OK and drove carefully home.
3) I found that the above was caused by a faulty thermostat (it barely opened at all when I dropped it into boiling water). I fitted new thermostat of the correct type when I got home, topped up coolant and bled. Left car ticking over with rad cap off until it got hot, the coolant did not bubble over, and the fans came in OK. Since the thermostat change the temp gauge has read a steady 80 regardless of speed.It was nearer 90 with the old 'stat.
4) However, coolant is now spraying out from the header tank over the battery. This seems to be taking place during driving. Yesterday lunch time I again topped up the coolant (very low) and left car ticking over with the cap off, and again the level did not rise, and the fans came in. I then drove home- 105 miles. This morning, as I turned out of my road, the low level lamp illuminated, and I had to stop at local filling station and get yet more coolant.
A few other points, if it helps. The rad gets hot all over when the 'stat is open. All bleeding has taken place with the heater turned to hot. During a pressure test at 15psi there was no sign of pressure drop.
I can't believe that this can be anything else other than the head gasket, but if anyone has got any bright ideas...................[:(]
Doh, methinks my HG has gone now.
Moderator: RichardW
Hi Jon
My old BX TD is with Tom Sheppard. I too had the YWLD and this seems to have been caused by dodgy thermostat and fan cut in sensor. Possibly it caused hot spots on Cylinder Head which once sorted disappeared.All this was confused by a major water loss from the oil cooler pipe!
However, do check for bubbles, and also for rock hard top hose. Another way to check is to get a HG gas check kit from Halfords or the like and try it in the header tank.
Sadly it does seem with water loss at top of ehader tank like the dreaded HG.
in any case its worth changing the Thermo housing for one with teh bleed hex screw in it (which mine had and bled like a hosue radiator)
My old BX TD is with Tom Sheppard. I too had the YWLD and this seems to have been caused by dodgy thermostat and fan cut in sensor. Possibly it caused hot spots on Cylinder Head which once sorted disappeared.All this was confused by a major water loss from the oil cooler pipe!
However, do check for bubbles, and also for rock hard top hose. Another way to check is to get a HG gas check kit from Halfords or the like and try it in the header tank.
Sadly it does seem with water loss at top of ehader tank like the dreaded HG.
in any case its worth changing the Thermo housing for one with teh bleed hex screw in it (which mine had and bled like a hosue radiator)
It could still have more air in the system- I haven't had any trouble with this on my BX, but I once had an Uno that was a nightmare in this respect and had to be bled of air 4 or 5 times before it settled- I resorted to starting the moteo with the heater hose off and then shoving it on when the air stopped and the water started, as the bleed valves were useless.
Watching "American Hotrod" this weekend, they had a brand new V8 to drop into a rod they were building- it was filled with coolant, the air bled out, started, and immediatly boiled- they then used a pressure bleeding rig until no more air came out, and it then boiled again on its first test run, and had to be pressure bled yet again!
It was only finally OK after this second pressurised bleeding session.
Watching "American Hotrod" this weekend, they had a brand new V8 to drop into a rod they were building- it was filled with coolant, the air bled out, started, and immediatly boiled- they then used a pressure bleeding rig until no more air came out, and it then boiled again on its first test run, and had to be pressure bled yet again!
It was only finally OK after this second pressurised bleeding session.
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Jon
We just had another look at it at lunchtime, and had the brainwave of removing one of the temp sensors from the thermo housing to act as a bleed point.
One of my colleagues commented that the rad cap spring felt very weak (the cap is only about 3 weeks old!) so we got fitted another one.
Water was checked and the tank level marked with tape. Will report back tomorrow following drive back from Birmingham.
One of my colleagues commented that the rad cap spring felt very weak (the cap is only about 3 weeks old!) so we got fitted another one.
Water was checked and the tank level marked with tape. Will report back tomorrow following drive back from Birmingham.
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Stuart McB
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Jon, for what it's worth years ago my first car an Austin maxi did the same thing after new coolant and a thermostat were fitted. It would boil over only when driving or some good looking chick was with me. Any hown the problem was the new coolant had, well rotted the rad hoses and expansionn tank rubber seals and this was letting in air.
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Jon
Jon,
I think you might have a dose of the classic '60s & '70s Toyota Crown 6 cylinder radiator hose syndrome.
I discovered this by accident (and two engines) and in the process answered a question that up to that point, nobody could answer; why did these engines suddenly destroy themselves without warning?
I lived at the Gold Coast and drove to Brisbane from time to time, a distance of around 65 miles. There was one slight uphill gradient; very slight, but long, that I had to drive over and each time I did, I noticed the temp gauge would rise just slightly. One day I was going to Brisbane in a hurry and as I drove up this incline (probably about 3 miles long) I saw the gauge rise somewhat dramatically so I backed off a little and noticed it once again fell to just above it's normal reading. A few miles further the car began to feel a bit sluggish but the temp gauge was still within acceptable levels, so I soldiered on. I thought I could see smoke behind the car so I pulled off the highway whereupon steam & smoke bellowed out from under the bonnet and the temp gauge and warning lights went off big time and everything stopped: THUMP!!. Now contrary to folklore & legends, Toyotas don't (well didn't anyway; things may have changed I don't know) have a real good reputation for warning systems for engine temps with their warning lights and gauges being located in such a way that if per chance the level dropped, they just simply recorded nprmal or slightly above or below that. Anyhow, I get towed to a mechanic mates place who proceeds to rebuild the engine for me. Driving home, same hill, same thing happens so I slow down and check & sure enough; hot as the hobs of hell and water everywhere. Bloody great, cooked another one on the same rise!! Car still went so I returned to the mechanics place for a check up, driving very gingerly of course, and after exhaustive tests it is decided the head has to come off again. Get driven home AGAIN; not a happy camper. [V][V]
Go back to mechanic (Remembering this guy was about 80 miles from where I lived) only to be told that the recon head had to be again restraightened and gasket fitted but after several days of tests, still couldn't find the fault. With great trepidation I head off home again. All goes well until.......................I hit this same bloooooooooody rise again and even driving steadily, up shoots the temp gauge but this time only partially.
I get home eventually, park the car and don't look at it until the following day.
Start engine & let idle; all is well, running as cool as a cucumber after about 20 minutes. Neighbour comes over inquiring/gloating over the car being away so long and now back home and asking what was (wasn't) found. As we are talking, I rev the engine and it sounds a bit strange, so I rev again this time harder & notice the intake hose to the pump sucking in. I rev harder and it flattens and sprays us with water from where the cap on the radiator lifts.
I take it for a drive and all is well, but when I find a nice quiet stretch of road and start to accellerate hard I notice the temp gauge almost rise before my eyes and when I lift the bonnet; water everywhere.
<b>Does all this sound familiar?</b>
I eventually come up withthe solution of making a coil from silver solder brazing rod and screwing it up the inside of the hose, tell my mechanic mate who in turn contacta Toyota Australia's service manager who he knew and as a result, Toyota Crown pump intake hoses came standard with a coil wrapped around them as a precaution.
In principle what happens is this; the pump begins to suck harder suddenly in a situation such as where you were getting out of the way of the lorry. This naturally causes a sudden increase in revs of the engine & so the water pump and the hose collapses momentarily, but, if the pedal is kept down, the hose continues to collapse until the circulation is cut off thereby causing the temp to overheat as well as trying to pump water through an obstructed circuit as a result, it takes it's lowest point of resistence which is naturally the radiator cap. This in turn lowers the coolant level thereby causing the temp to rise and further sudden accelerations then multiply the effect due to the pressure being higher due to the temperature increase and so it goes on until everything is cooking.
To my mind, you have all the classic symptoms of this and this could be why it's so hard to find. Being aware of it, I have also discovered this problem in a smaller degree in my BX16V which I cured by replacing a section of the hose at the elbow where it enters the pump; should be worth a look on yours as the 16V and the Diesel on the BX have a hose there whilst not common to both is close enough for them to be mistaken for each other.
Alan S
PS. I must go & have a lie down now; that's brought back some baaad memories; nightmare drives in Toyotas.
[xx(][xx(]
I think you might have a dose of the classic '60s & '70s Toyota Crown 6 cylinder radiator hose syndrome.
I discovered this by accident (and two engines) and in the process answered a question that up to that point, nobody could answer; why did these engines suddenly destroy themselves without warning?
I lived at the Gold Coast and drove to Brisbane from time to time, a distance of around 65 miles. There was one slight uphill gradient; very slight, but long, that I had to drive over and each time I did, I noticed the temp gauge would rise just slightly. One day I was going to Brisbane in a hurry and as I drove up this incline (probably about 3 miles long) I saw the gauge rise somewhat dramatically so I backed off a little and noticed it once again fell to just above it's normal reading. A few miles further the car began to feel a bit sluggish but the temp gauge was still within acceptable levels, so I soldiered on. I thought I could see smoke behind the car so I pulled off the highway whereupon steam & smoke bellowed out from under the bonnet and the temp gauge and warning lights went off big time and everything stopped: THUMP!!. Now contrary to folklore & legends, Toyotas don't (well didn't anyway; things may have changed I don't know) have a real good reputation for warning systems for engine temps with their warning lights and gauges being located in such a way that if per chance the level dropped, they just simply recorded nprmal or slightly above or below that. Anyhow, I get towed to a mechanic mates place who proceeds to rebuild the engine for me. Driving home, same hill, same thing happens so I slow down and check & sure enough; hot as the hobs of hell and water everywhere. Bloody great, cooked another one on the same rise!! Car still went so I returned to the mechanics place for a check up, driving very gingerly of course, and after exhaustive tests it is decided the head has to come off again. Get driven home AGAIN; not a happy camper. [V][V]
Go back to mechanic (Remembering this guy was about 80 miles from where I lived) only to be told that the recon head had to be again restraightened and gasket fitted but after several days of tests, still couldn't find the fault. With great trepidation I head off home again. All goes well until.......................I hit this same bloooooooooody rise again and even driving steadily, up shoots the temp gauge but this time only partially.
I get home eventually, park the car and don't look at it until the following day.
Start engine & let idle; all is well, running as cool as a cucumber after about 20 minutes. Neighbour comes over inquiring/gloating over the car being away so long and now back home and asking what was (wasn't) found. As we are talking, I rev the engine and it sounds a bit strange, so I rev again this time harder & notice the intake hose to the pump sucking in. I rev harder and it flattens and sprays us with water from where the cap on the radiator lifts.
I take it for a drive and all is well, but when I find a nice quiet stretch of road and start to accellerate hard I notice the temp gauge almost rise before my eyes and when I lift the bonnet; water everywhere.
<b>Does all this sound familiar?</b>
I eventually come up withthe solution of making a coil from silver solder brazing rod and screwing it up the inside of the hose, tell my mechanic mate who in turn contacta Toyota Australia's service manager who he knew and as a result, Toyota Crown pump intake hoses came standard with a coil wrapped around them as a precaution.
In principle what happens is this; the pump begins to suck harder suddenly in a situation such as where you were getting out of the way of the lorry. This naturally causes a sudden increase in revs of the engine & so the water pump and the hose collapses momentarily, but, if the pedal is kept down, the hose continues to collapse until the circulation is cut off thereby causing the temp to overheat as well as trying to pump water through an obstructed circuit as a result, it takes it's lowest point of resistence which is naturally the radiator cap. This in turn lowers the coolant level thereby causing the temp to rise and further sudden accelerations then multiply the effect due to the pressure being higher due to the temperature increase and so it goes on until everything is cooking.
To my mind, you have all the classic symptoms of this and this could be why it's so hard to find. Being aware of it, I have also discovered this problem in a smaller degree in my BX16V which I cured by replacing a section of the hose at the elbow where it enters the pump; should be worth a look on yours as the 16V and the Diesel on the BX have a hose there whilst not common to both is close enough for them to be mistaken for each other.
Alan S
PS. I must go & have a lie down now; that's brought back some baaad memories; nightmare drives in Toyotas.
[xx(][xx(]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AndersDK</i>
Me thinks AlanS could well have a point on most of the XU engine series - have a look guys - before it costs you a HG [B)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thanks Anders,
The reason I think this is a possible diagnosis is that the elbow in the hose sits directly in the path of any grease that gets spit from the CV boot if it splits, whereupon it just turns to jelly and has no resistence whatsoever to any forces sucking it in.
Alan S
Me thinks AlanS could well have a point on most of the XU engine series - have a look guys - before it costs you a HG [B)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thanks Anders,
The reason I think this is a possible diagnosis is that the elbow in the hose sits directly in the path of any grease that gets spit from the CV boot if it splits, whereupon it just turns to jelly and has no resistence whatsoever to any forces sucking it in.
Alan S
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jonathan_dyane
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jon</i>
Inspired by Jonathans' BX HG failure, it now looks like project BX has tossed its toys out of the pram too.
The problem is a large coolant loss from the hole at the top of the header tank, with coolant being sprayed over the battery and gearbox.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Commiserations if it is the HG Jon, but I'm not sure it is in this case... If you can run the car from cold ticking over through to fans on without bubbling or water rise in the header, and the car starts and runs OK, I really would be looking for another possibility.
Radiator cap is *definatly* first port of call here; when I first got mine I made the first journey (Durham to Liverpool) in record time. I only got 36mpg, which shows how hard I was driving her. After I got there, a friend asked if I could give her a lift, and I readily obliged. Imagine my paranoia when the low coolant light came on 50 yards down the road. Anyway, as I discovered, if the rad cap is weak, it *will* blow water out of the header. Even though it has been replaced, another new cap will rule out the possibility. Incidentally, even with a new cap, I find on mine it does not feel as 'tight' or positive a fit as on other cars; could the plastic header neck wear with repeated level checking and reduce tension on the cap?
Anyway, do check carefully before you pull that head off, as Alan says, consider a dodgy hose (maybe a damaged braided one behind the head?). I vaguely remember hearing about an XUD where the water pump seal was defective which somehow caused over pressure, not sure if this is possible, or if I misunderstood, but as the water pump has recently changed it does sound reasonably plausable...
Good luck,
Jonathan. (who will be preparing block and head for reassembly tomorrow...)
Inspired by Jonathans' BX HG failure, it now looks like project BX has tossed its toys out of the pram too.
The problem is a large coolant loss from the hole at the top of the header tank, with coolant being sprayed over the battery and gearbox.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Commiserations if it is the HG Jon, but I'm not sure it is in this case... If you can run the car from cold ticking over through to fans on without bubbling or water rise in the header, and the car starts and runs OK, I really would be looking for another possibility.
Radiator cap is *definatly* first port of call here; when I first got mine I made the first journey (Durham to Liverpool) in record time. I only got 36mpg, which shows how hard I was driving her. After I got there, a friend asked if I could give her a lift, and I readily obliged. Imagine my paranoia when the low coolant light came on 50 yards down the road. Anyway, as I discovered, if the rad cap is weak, it *will* blow water out of the header. Even though it has been replaced, another new cap will rule out the possibility. Incidentally, even with a new cap, I find on mine it does not feel as 'tight' or positive a fit as on other cars; could the plastic header neck wear with repeated level checking and reduce tension on the cap?
Anyway, do check carefully before you pull that head off, as Alan says, consider a dodgy hose (maybe a damaged braided one behind the head?). I vaguely remember hearing about an XUD where the water pump seal was defective which somehow caused over pressure, not sure if this is possible, or if I misunderstood, but as the water pump has recently changed it does sound reasonably plausable...
Good luck,
Jonathan. (who will be preparing block and head for reassembly tomorrow...)
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Jon
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I just went out and checked the water level, there was just enough to cover the level sensor and again the battery is soaking wet. This is despite the fill and bleed and new rad cap yesterday lunchtime. So, I have problems. [:(]
What Alan says about the collapsing hose syndrome is interesting. I guess that we can rule out the smaller hoses here, and concentrate efforts on the top hose, the bottom hose and the 3 braided hoses. I just had a quick look and these TD units really are a plumbers nightmare, I counted 9 different hoses during a casual inspection! I suppose the thing to do is drive it until its nice and warm, get it up on axle stands with the o/s/f wheel and side cover off, and have someone rev it up whilst I inspect the hoses in turn, I hope that its the bottom hose as those pesky braided ones are everyone's worst nightmare. I'm going to have to stop driving it until I find the cure, using nearly a litre over 200 miles. This "consumption" can be lowered by driving carefully on a light throttle..............
I just went out and checked the water level, there was just enough to cover the level sensor and again the battery is soaking wet. This is despite the fill and bleed and new rad cap yesterday lunchtime. So, I have problems. [:(]
What Alan says about the collapsing hose syndrome is interesting. I guess that we can rule out the smaller hoses here, and concentrate efforts on the top hose, the bottom hose and the 3 braided hoses. I just had a quick look and these TD units really are a plumbers nightmare, I counted 9 different hoses during a casual inspection! I suppose the thing to do is drive it until its nice and warm, get it up on axle stands with the o/s/f wheel and side cover off, and have someone rev it up whilst I inspect the hoses in turn, I hope that its the bottom hose as those pesky braided ones are everyone's worst nightmare. I'm going to have to stop driving it until I find the cure, using nearly a litre over 200 miles. This "consumption" can be lowered by driving carefully on a light throttle..............
Jon,
Pay particular attention to the one from the bottom of the radiator to the intake of the pump; it's on the "sucking" side of the pump and this coupled to any grease contamination will be the biggest suspect.
I presume on the diesel as with the 16V you'll need to have the wheel off and the inner guard removed to see it up on axle stands; nothing's easy is it?
Alan S
Pay particular attention to the one from the bottom of the radiator to the intake of the pump; it's on the "sucking" side of the pump and this coupled to any grease contamination will be the biggest suspect.
I presume on the diesel as with the 16V you'll need to have the wheel off and the inner guard removed to see it up on axle stands; nothing's easy is it?
Alan S
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Jon
Well, I've done some more tests.......and I did find that the bottom rad hose was as soft as, um something really soft. So I ordered a new one from our friends at Citroen for £34.00. Bargain!
In the meanwhile I glued a small section of pipe into the hole in the header tank, it goes into an old plastic bottle wedged in front of the battery. Every 2 days the contents is poured back from the bottle into the header tank. Ideal solution, cost: Nil!!!
I'll report back when I have changed the bottom hose. After that I'm off for a block test.
In the meanwhile I glued a small section of pipe into the hole in the header tank, it goes into an old plastic bottle wedged in front of the battery. Every 2 days the contents is poured back from the bottle into the header tank. Ideal solution, cost: Nil!!!
I'll report back when I have changed the bottom hose. After that I'm off for a block test.
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2cvracer28
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<font color="blue"></font id="blue">
My advice would be to break it up for spares and stop messing about.
Sounds like you have wasted enough time and money already.Never were a good car in the first place.What you need a nice air cooled car,they are fantastic!
There will be a day when all the current manufactures see the light and stop using water.Granted they are prone to some heat seizures if driven with some vigor but other than that marvelous!
[:o)]
My advice would be to break it up for spares and stop messing about.
Sounds like you have wasted enough time and money already.Never were a good car in the first place.What you need a nice air cooled car,they are fantastic!
There will be a day when all the current manufactures see the light and stop using water.Granted they are prone to some heat seizures if driven with some vigor but other than that marvelous!
[:o)]