Alan, couldn't agree more, Cits got a reputation for complexity and it has stuck for 50 years or more, once you get a reputation like that it is hard if not impossible to get rid of. Look at Skoda, M&S, Sainsburys.
Most other owners seem to keep quiet about their problems, we joke about ours because inevitably people expect cits to be problem cars. We had a friend round last night, he owns a T reg Merc 320 diesel, about 70 k or so. he'd just done £800 on a service and two new front ball joints, and £750 on another service six months ago. Now he was unsurprised by the size of the bills or the need to replace parts, us lot on the other hand, and that definitely includes me, expect everything to last for ever, cost 2p for the bits.
Yes cits are frustrating, the rear arm bearing thing is a classic example going back to the early 70s with the GS I think being the first cit to use that design. Sometimes I wonder if Citroen shoulld do the design work and then give it to Toyota to build (shoot that man for heresy!!)
My experience over far too many years has been that they are good cars and very reliable, if you understand them and look after them, the difference appears to be that for instance the run of the mill Jap cars seem to thrive on abuse.
Pete
New Citroens are rubbish. Discuss...
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ghostrider
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DoubleChevron
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Hi Guys,
yep, in 10years time these forums will be full of C2, C3 and C5 drivers complaining the new cars are dull and lifeless .......
And I'll probably be still complaining that anything made after poogoe take over is dull and boring [:D] But perfectly acceptable for my wife to drive [}:)] The CX and GS are the last really interesting cars ...
Who gives a sh!t what anyone else thinks, if you like the rebadged poogoes with no proper suspension that's great. They are keeping the Citroen name alive (it would have dissapeared back in the 70's if Citroen had kept making interesting cars like the DS/CX/GS).
Would you buy a modern GS ?? ie: an underpowered Citroen with brilliant rollypolly handling, fanstastic ride confort, poor heater and ventilation that's difficult for new comers to drive with daravi steering and high pressure brakes. Yep, it'd be Citroens biggest flop in years ... And lose them buckets of $$$. No matter what it looks like people would test drive it around the block and hate it 'cos it doesn't drive like every other car out there.
seeya,
Shane L.
yep, in 10years time these forums will be full of C2, C3 and C5 drivers complaining the new cars are dull and lifeless .......
And I'll probably be still complaining that anything made after poogoe take over is dull and boring [:D] But perfectly acceptable for my wife to drive [}:)] The CX and GS are the last really interesting cars ...
Who gives a sh!t what anyone else thinks, if you like the rebadged poogoes with no proper suspension that's great. They are keeping the Citroen name alive (it would have dissapeared back in the 70's if Citroen had kept making interesting cars like the DS/CX/GS).
Would you buy a modern GS ?? ie: an underpowered Citroen with brilliant rollypolly handling, fanstastic ride confort, poor heater and ventilation that's difficult for new comers to drive with daravi steering and high pressure brakes. Yep, it'd be Citroens biggest flop in years ... And lose them buckets of $$$. No matter what it looks like people would test drive it around the block and hate it 'cos it doesn't drive like every other car out there.
seeya,
Shane L.
Well I liked my old GS. For underpowered it did pretty well really. Nothing wrong with its steering either, though admittedly some who tried it out did - goodness knows why! - think the steering a bit "heavy". And I like my present ZX and the Xantia Mk.1 estate (both TDs) as well. But the present new Citroens are rather unappealing (ok, so maybe the C5 estate is just about ok) so if I was going for another car now it would ideally be a Skoda Octavia turbodiesel estate.
"We lets face it they are a cheap and nasty. They go wrong canstantly after leaving the factory. Sure they may have everything for not very much money but whats the point if it never works?"
Sorry, but I can't find anything to agree with there. Maybe I don't have as much experience of Cits as some but I (and wife) have now owned 2 BXs, 2 Xantias and a Berlingo. Son has just bought a C2 (cracking little car)
None were cheap!
I wouldn't buy them if I thought they were nasty
None have gone wrong from the factory (even if all but the Berlingo were second hand!)- in fact in 17 years of ownership we have yet to have a breakdown that left us stranded by the roadside.(RAC makes a fortune out of us each year!)And in 18 months and 15k my Berlingo has needed nothing under warranty.
Nothing works ? Well, everything does and always has except for "normal wear and tear" - pads, occasional disc, spheres, filters, cambelts when required etc.
Apart from wonderful ride (the sphere equipped ones), they have brilliant engines (XUD in its time, now the HDi), are "loaded" for the price, make excellent use of space, brilliant towers etc. What I also like is that people know what they are and look like, or that they have "funny suspension", or "oh is it one that goes up and down?"
When they tell me they drive a Corolla, Avensis, Civic etc, I always like to say "Oh right, what does that look like then?". To which the usual reply is "Well it's very reliable" Heck, so's my Citroen.
And of course, as a Cit owner, one gets to read interesting web sites populated by people who are enthusiasts and enjoy their cars and enjoy sharing their experience.
I bet Anders, AlanS, Vanny, Tom S, Double Chev, Nisk, Uhn and all you others would not be so interested in a Vectra or Mundano - would Jon restore a Vectra?
Anyway - I like Cits - nearly as much as this excellent MacAllan Single Malt I am swigging, oops, I mean sipping!
Sorry, but I can't find anything to agree with there. Maybe I don't have as much experience of Cits as some but I (and wife) have now owned 2 BXs, 2 Xantias and a Berlingo. Son has just bought a C2 (cracking little car)
None were cheap!
I wouldn't buy them if I thought they were nasty
None have gone wrong from the factory (even if all but the Berlingo were second hand!)- in fact in 17 years of ownership we have yet to have a breakdown that left us stranded by the roadside.(RAC makes a fortune out of us each year!)And in 18 months and 15k my Berlingo has needed nothing under warranty.
Nothing works ? Well, everything does and always has except for "normal wear and tear" - pads, occasional disc, spheres, filters, cambelts when required etc.
Apart from wonderful ride (the sphere equipped ones), they have brilliant engines (XUD in its time, now the HDi), are "loaded" for the price, make excellent use of space, brilliant towers etc. What I also like is that people know what they are and look like, or that they have "funny suspension", or "oh is it one that goes up and down?"
When they tell me they drive a Corolla, Avensis, Civic etc, I always like to say "Oh right, what does that look like then?". To which the usual reply is "Well it's very reliable" Heck, so's my Citroen.
And of course, as a Cit owner, one gets to read interesting web sites populated by people who are enthusiasts and enjoy their cars and enjoy sharing their experience.
I bet Anders, AlanS, Vanny, Tom S, Double Chev, Nisk, Uhn and all you others would not be so interested in a Vectra or Mundano - would Jon restore a Vectra?
Anyway - I like Cits - nearly as much as this excellent MacAllan Single Malt I am swigging, oops, I mean sipping!
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martyhopkirk
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by pwatson</i>
Though of course, I could swap the MacAllan for characterless Tesco whisky - and then I could also swap the Cits for a Vectra!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well this is the nub isnt it - the Cit has character (even the Mk1 C5 is unique in it class if only for the Hydractve 3 suspension).
Which is why i would far rather drive a Dyane than a Fiesta - not because its more comfortable, but because it puts a bigger grin on my face (and that of others too).[:D][:D][:D]
Im willing to put up with the so called "relaibility" problems, believe me in 25 years of driving having owned and run all sorts of motors the Xantia and ZX i currently run have been no less reliable than anything else i have ever had.
Though it has to be said i feel my electrical problems with the ZX have now become terminal as its meltng the wiring loom at a silly rate, for a car which cost me £600 and has since done near enough 40000 miles without any further cash expenditure im a happy bloke.[:D]
Drove a new vectra this year after i wrote off the Laguna - hated it it was soooooo bland and soul destroying to drive. My father in laws a Vauxhal bloke, thought i was mad to say it was carp, at least the wife agreed with me.[;)]
Though of course, I could swap the MacAllan for characterless Tesco whisky - and then I could also swap the Cits for a Vectra!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well this is the nub isnt it - the Cit has character (even the Mk1 C5 is unique in it class if only for the Hydractve 3 suspension).
Which is why i would far rather drive a Dyane than a Fiesta - not because its more comfortable, but because it puts a bigger grin on my face (and that of others too).[:D][:D][:D]
Im willing to put up with the so called "relaibility" problems, believe me in 25 years of driving having owned and run all sorts of motors the Xantia and ZX i currently run have been no less reliable than anything else i have ever had.
Though it has to be said i feel my electrical problems with the ZX have now become terminal as its meltng the wiring loom at a silly rate, for a car which cost me £600 and has since done near enough 40000 miles without any further cash expenditure im a happy bloke.[:D]
Drove a new vectra this year after i wrote off the Laguna - hated it it was soooooo bland and soul destroying to drive. My father in laws a Vauxhal bloke, thought i was mad to say it was carp, at least the wife agreed with me.[;)]
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madasafish
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The key to the public'a attitude to a car's reliability falls in 3 sectors:
1. Faults when new. New Citroens often have mnajor electrical or design faults - C5 rear suspension for example - or electrical problems caused by poor design and assembly.
2. Ability to withstand abuse. Japanese cars will run and run with oil and filter changes only. A Xantia's suspension will fail under this regime - unless regularly maintained by a competent garage/DIY
which comes to 3. Service
Many (not all) Citroen garages were small/ incompetent/ could not make enough money or keep competent staff and ended up with poor maintenance.
Any company that designed the Xantia clutch cable, the XM electrics and the C5 rear suspension has a MAJOR and ongoing design problem which it does not appear to heave learned from.
I Would NEVER buy a new Citroen model within 3 years of its launch date: chance sare it will be full of design and assembly faults.
As for Citroen electrics and electronics: they should learn from Ford. Citroen used cheap and nasty connectors and wiring on the XM BX and Mark 1 Xantias. Ans now they use multiplex coded wiring. In 7 years time it will be unserviceable when broken.
Face it : brilliant concepts : appalling execution and an inability to learn from past mistooks are their hallmark:-)
1. Faults when new. New Citroens often have mnajor electrical or design faults - C5 rear suspension for example - or electrical problems caused by poor design and assembly.
2. Ability to withstand abuse. Japanese cars will run and run with oil and filter changes only. A Xantia's suspension will fail under this regime - unless regularly maintained by a competent garage/DIY
which comes to 3. Service
Many (not all) Citroen garages were small/ incompetent/ could not make enough money or keep competent staff and ended up with poor maintenance.
Any company that designed the Xantia clutch cable, the XM electrics and the C5 rear suspension has a MAJOR and ongoing design problem which it does not appear to heave learned from.
I Would NEVER buy a new Citroen model within 3 years of its launch date: chance sare it will be full of design and assembly faults.
As for Citroen electrics and electronics: they should learn from Ford. Citroen used cheap and nasty connectors and wiring on the XM BX and Mark 1 Xantias. Ans now they use multiplex coded wiring. In 7 years time it will be unserviceable when broken.
Face it : brilliant concepts : appalling execution and an inability to learn from past mistooks are their hallmark:-)
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tomsheppard
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Some interesting stuff there Alan. Over here, The most reviled car was for many years the Skoda, A solid, dependable and tough little brute with the engine in the back. But it was too cheap to be taken seriously. Their engine plant now spits out Bentley lumps for VW.
Citroens are constructed out of coloured air and sharp bits so those of us that venture forth with toolkits know that by comparison with other cars, it is true, they are horrible to work on. That they do many other things well is beside the point because so do other cars. You only buy a Citroen if you are interested, because there are so many cars in this country (Where a car is your status symbol/ posing pouch/ fashion accessory.) I bought my first BX on a very tight budget because I needed a Diesel estate which had to be French. Were I not a car freak, I'd have bought a Renault but the Cit was (initially) cheap. Citroen drivers tend to be fussy people. They want it right. They are usually bright enough to take a risk or see an obvious bargain. You'll never find one who knows nothing about cars, most are tech savvy, usually more so than the garage fitter that is charged with mending this flimsy box of sharp bits!
Citroens are constructed out of coloured air and sharp bits so those of us that venture forth with toolkits know that by comparison with other cars, it is true, they are horrible to work on. That they do many other things well is beside the point because so do other cars. You only buy a Citroen if you are interested, because there are so many cars in this country (Where a car is your status symbol/ posing pouch/ fashion accessory.) I bought my first BX on a very tight budget because I needed a Diesel estate which had to be French. Were I not a car freak, I'd have bought a Renault but the Cit was (initially) cheap. Citroen drivers tend to be fussy people. They want it right. They are usually bright enough to take a risk or see an obvious bargain. You'll never find one who knows nothing about cars, most are tech savvy, usually more so than the garage fitter that is charged with mending this flimsy box of sharp bits!
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ghostrider
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What we really want is a Cit that has a better build quality, so what if they cost more? perhaps then the depreciation wouldn't be at the same level as a planet falling into a black hole [:D]. I ride around a lot in my mates 300 diesel merc, watching paint dry is more interesting, much more interesting, but although it's a '92 car there is no rust on it all as far as I can see. All my cits have died from the tin worm over the years, in the early years I spent ages keeping rust at bay, but most of the time I felt that King Canute had an easier time [:D] [:D] [:D]. I suspect that the PSA group do not really appreciate the different road conditions found in the UK.
I once went to a breakers yard just outside Montpellier, I was stunned to see rows of GSs & CXs going back to the very first models, when I asked the guy why they were there he said that they were worn out, when I looked at the speedos they had all done intergalactic mileages, but there was little sign of the tin worm, not unexpected really as it is dry and hot down there and the roads probably only get salt on them once in a blue moon, do you guys in Aus suffer from rot? It seems that the PSA group have never really tackled the problem, probably because for a very large portion of their users it is not an issue. Having said that I've just returned from a week in Cognac (no, the town not the bottle [:D] [:D] ) and I didn't see a single CX DS or GS a few Dyanes and 2CVs, a real change to even a couple of years ago, I know there is some sort of deal for scrapping your old car and you'd have to be nuts not to run a diesel but strange nevertheless
Another mate worked for a company that swapped to Lexus, and they had nothing but grief from day one so you just cant tell
Pete
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Toyota corolla levin and toyota sprinter trueno history
I once went to a breakers yard just outside Montpellier, I was stunned to see rows of GSs & CXs going back to the very first models, when I asked the guy why they were there he said that they were worn out, when I looked at the speedos they had all done intergalactic mileages, but there was little sign of the tin worm, not unexpected really as it is dry and hot down there and the roads probably only get salt on them once in a blue moon, do you guys in Aus suffer from rot? It seems that the PSA group have never really tackled the problem, probably because for a very large portion of their users it is not an issue. Having said that I've just returned from a week in Cognac (no, the town not the bottle [:D] [:D] ) and I didn't see a single CX DS or GS a few Dyanes and 2CVs, a real change to even a couple of years ago, I know there is some sort of deal for scrapping your old car and you'd have to be nuts not to run a diesel but strange nevertheless
Another mate worked for a company that swapped to Lexus, and they had nothing but grief from day one so you just cant tell
Pete
________
Toyota corolla levin and toyota sprinter trueno history
Last edited by ghostrider on 22 Feb 2011, 05:55, edited 1 time in total.
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tomsheppard
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As a minor aside, Citroen did learn from Ford. Remove an abs sensor's coaxial plug from a BX and look very carefully...
Canute, being Danish was well cured and so didn't go rusty.
And bring me the head of the official who dreamed up the bounty for scrapping your old but usable car. Crime against my home planet there and no mistake. What would you give for a sound GS or CX shell these days?
After a week in Cognac Pete, did you see any DOUBLE CX,GS or DSs?
I was in Mayenne and Vendee last week, A nice Dyane, A great Ami and three Goddesses. No CXs but I usually spot at least one GS.
I think we should be told!
Canute, being Danish was well cured and so didn't go rusty.
And bring me the head of the official who dreamed up the bounty for scrapping your old but usable car. Crime against my home planet there and no mistake. What would you give for a sound GS or CX shell these days?
After a week in Cognac Pete, did you see any DOUBLE CX,GS or DSs?
I was in Mayenne and Vendee last week, A nice Dyane, A great Ami and three Goddesses. No CXs but I usually spot at least one GS.
I think we should be told!
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Citroen did learn from Ford<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ever done an alternator on a MkIII Escort?-a right knuckle skinner!! I think Ford learned from Citroen for that one!!!Every car has its horror jobs-remember Ford void bushes-I dont think Cits are any worse really than anything else, you just have to think differently.
CX's are still being scrapped- there was a tatty maroon estate in Leyton which I went by regularly: it was obviously unused and gradually being vandalised, but still taxed- the tax expired at the end of October and it was gone the next day.
Sadly, I think it went to the crusher as it didn't sprout a for sale sign, and Waltham Forest council will take your wreck away for free.
Ever done an alternator on a MkIII Escort?-a right knuckle skinner!! I think Ford learned from Citroen for that one!!!Every car has its horror jobs-remember Ford void bushes-I dont think Cits are any worse really than anything else, you just have to think differently.
CX's are still being scrapped- there was a tatty maroon estate in Leyton which I went by regularly: it was obviously unused and gradually being vandalised, but still taxed- the tax expired at the end of October and it was gone the next day.
Sadly, I think it went to the crusher as it didn't sprout a for sale sign, and Waltham Forest council will take your wreck away for free.
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silverback
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cheesesliceking
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by macaroni</i>
As an aside, years ago I heard it said that a whole AX weighs the same a Jag V12 engine? Could this be true?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
depends how much the Jag V12 engine weighs? the AX is around 670kg..[;)]
As an aside, years ago I heard it said that a whole AX weighs the same a Jag V12 engine? Could this be true?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
depends how much the Jag V12 engine weighs? the AX is around 670kg..[;)]
Ghostrider,
You have two BXs and a Xantia yet still praise a '92 Mercedes for not rusting??? The majority of '92/93 BX/ZX/Xantias will have no rust at all. Better than Ford, Vauxhall, most Japanese, VW and yes even Mercedes.
I owned lots of the 1970s/early 80s Citroens and their rust was a complete disaster. Then came the BX where they got it 95% perfect in one. Now the rust resistance of a Xantia is an example to all makers.
It's not the quality of the current ten year old Citroens that ends up scrapping them...its the quality of the maintenance! As my 1993 Xantia sits here at about 120K I can see no reason why it should not go another 10yrs/100K.
David
You have two BXs and a Xantia yet still praise a '92 Mercedes for not rusting??? The majority of '92/93 BX/ZX/Xantias will have no rust at all. Better than Ford, Vauxhall, most Japanese, VW and yes even Mercedes.
I owned lots of the 1970s/early 80s Citroens and their rust was a complete disaster. Then came the BX where they got it 95% perfect in one. Now the rust resistance of a Xantia is an example to all makers.
It's not the quality of the current ten year old Citroens that ends up scrapping them...its the quality of the maintenance! As my 1993 Xantia sits here at about 120K I can see no reason why it should not go another 10yrs/100K.
David