Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

This is the place for posts that don't fit into any other category.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Bit of a contrast between TESLA and the traditional car makers.

TESLA have developed their own Supercharger Network in the UK and Elsewhere and its up and running. (Just the occasional queue in California as pointed out by Steve earlier in the thread :-D https://speedsociety.com/tesla-line-sup ... e-exposes/)

IONITY is a project set up by Ford, BMW, Daimler and the Volkswagen Group to install a network of fast electric chargers across Europe. The company also has signed agreements with oil giants Shell and Eni to build chargers at their fuel stations.

Meanwhile back at PSA, Carlos Tavares made it clear that PSA does not see charging networks as a core business. Could well be right, sit on your hands and wait for governments and "the market" to provide the infrastructure.

Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8402
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 403

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Mandrake »

Tesla had to build their own supercharger network at least in the US, or the car would have never got off the ground.

The Model S first released in 2012 and there was basically ZERO public rapid chargers of any kind in the US at that time, and none on the horizon either. The US was very backward in adopting EV's back then and still largely is, with the exception of a few "CARB" states like California. Believe it or not, if you exclude the supercharger networks the UK has more pervasive rapid charging than the US!

So if they hadn't done it, they would have been selling a car that couldn't be charged anywhere except at home, making it basically useless given the long travel distances between cities in the US.

It's not so clear whether they will need to run a supercharger network forever though, particularly in the EU/UK. The Model S/X used the Type 2 AC plug in a non standard way for super charging by putting high current DC on pins normally reserved for AC. So to use a Model S/X on the public rapid chargers in the UK outside of the supercharger network, which are Chademo or CCS, you need an adaptor.

For a long time it was a Chademo adaptor which provided a maximum charge rate of 50kW vs the 125kW of a supercharger. This all changed when the Model 3 released and came with industry standard CCS rapid charging (in the EU/UK version not US) instead of the proprietary rapid charging system the Model S/X used.

This caused some temporary pain for new Model 3 owners because existing superchargers did not work on the Model 3 until they were outfitted with a second cable with CCS connector on it, however I believe that is mostly resolved now.

However the payoff is that a Model 3 will plug into any regular CCS rapid charger such as Instavolt without an adaptor and can charge at the same 125kW speed as a Supercharger on a 150kW CCS charger, with Tesla promising to bump up the speeds in the future with a software update.

So the Model 3 is extremely versatile on the charging front. It will charge from home or public AC chargers using the EU/UK standard Type 2 plug at up to 11kW, on CCS chargers at up to 125kW and on Superchargers at up to 125kW as well.

To bring the Model S/X into line they are now selling a CCS adaptor in place of the Chademo adaptor as Chademo is now considered to be legacy (but still well supported) in the EU/UK with CCS being the standard that the EU has adopted.

In fact there's some argument that the Model 3 dropping on the market supporting CCS was the final nail in the coffin of Chademo, as it's likely to be the biggest selling BEV over here for a number of years.

In China, Tesla have been forced to put an ugly flap on the side of their Model S/X to accomodate the Chinese standard connectors (one of which looks like Chademo but isn't) which aren't used anywhere else in the world! I suspect China is using unique connectors as a way to control the entry of foreign EV's into their domestic market by effectively crippling grey market imports...

Gibbo2286
Donor 2020
Posts: 5190
Joined: 08 Jun 2011, 18:04
x 1106

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Gibbo2286 »

Carlos is right charging infrastructure is not a core part of the car building business any more than supplying petrol is.

Energy and fuel suppliers are best fitted for that job, they already have the necessary skills in house and much of the space on the ground to deploy it.

Richard_C
Donor 2016
Posts: 522
Joined: 15 Oct 2011, 17:31
x 91

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Richard_C »

Mandrake wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 11:41
I suspect China is using unique connectors as a way to control the entry of foreign EV's into their domestic market by effectively crippling grey market imports...
Or, sensibly, China has set a universal standard so you can charge any car up at any charge point, albeit with different charge rates.

Right now, I can buy petrol/diesel at any filling station in the world using either cash in local currency or a credit card. If I had an electric vehicle I would have to find a vacant charger with the right sort of connection and which uses a payment method I have subscribed to/downloaded/ whatever. OK, I would charge a lot at home and most of my journeys (but not most of my miles) would be covered by that. But the thought of a summer Saturday trip to the Westcountry during the school holidays would be worrying, as would a business trip home on a Friday or a trip to the relative son Christmas eve.

How many acres of land and how thick a cable would somewhere like Taunton Services need to cope? We get on and off a petrol pump in less that 10 minutes, queue and charge might be 120 or more. How long would we have to wait to get on a charger and how much would the 'over 2 hours parking charge' cost us on top of the bill.

At the very least a universal standard plug and a universal open payment method should be in place. If we had proper infrastructure I would go out and buy an all electric without hesitation.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Mandrake wrote:
05 Dec 2019, 15:09
If you're just nipping over the border give it a try and let us know what happens... as long as you have plan B though.
Did venture into Scotland today, and turned up here at Eyemouth, intending to phone chargeyourcar and get them to initiate a charging session, and possibly link my existing BP Chargemaster Polar Plus card so I could use it at other sites they manage on behalf of Chargeplace Scotland.

But one of these was on charge and not back for 3/4 an hour
Eyemouth Charging Station<br />NF Own Work
Eyemouth Charging Station
NF Own Work
Plan B....drove up to GrantsHouse about 8 miles iup the A1....couldnt find the charger location so abandoned the Charge up in Scotland process and went back to Berwick :-D

Conclusion...not going to bother faffing about for the sake of £20 going to get a chargeplace scotland card if we can. We would have spent more that on Petrol in one trip up to visit family in the Edinburgh Area in the old days!

Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8402
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 403

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Mandrake »

Richard_C wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 18:28
Mandrake wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 11:41
I suspect China is using unique connectors as a way to control the entry of foreign EV's into their domestic market by effectively crippling grey market imports...
Or, sensibly, China has set a universal standard so you can charge any car up at any charge point, albeit with different charge rates.
No, what they've done it's created a 3rd standard (4th if you count superchargers) instead of using one of the already established standards Chademo or CCS. This comic springs to mind:

https://xkcd.com/927/
Image
Right now, I can buy petrol/diesel at any filling station in the world using either cash in local currency or a credit card. If I had an electric vehicle I would have to find a vacant charger with the right sort of connection and which uses a payment method I have subscribed to/downloaded/ whatever.
You're confusing connectors with methods of payment. Two separate issues. Ignoring super chargers which only Teslas can use there have been three connectors used for rapid charging in the past in the UK:

1) The Type 2 AC connector - only used for rapid charging on the Zoe, now considered to be obsolete for rapid charging and the 2019 Zoe has switched to CCS. Still the standard connector for slower AC charging.
2) Chademo - the first DC rapid charging standard. Still the standard in Japan but considered to be legacy now in the EU/UK and will eventually be phased out.
3) CCS - the EU/UK officially adopted standard.

China adding yet another incompatible system only adds to this list.

The vast majority of UK rapid chargers have both Chademo and CCS and most still have rapid AC either, so finding a suitable connector is not an issue.

You are quite right about the issue of payment and authentication, that's a mess and needs sorting out as it is a significant barrier to the widespread adoption of EV's. The government had a chance to fix this and they screwed up.

There were calls for them to mandate that every network offer ala carte contactless payment as an option the same as what Instavolt already offer however in the end this was watered down to all networks being required to provide access without a subscription, however a phone app was considered an acceptable means of doing this so contactless did not become a mandated requirement.

Big mistake! And I suspect this point will be revisited in the future...

User avatar
white exec
Moderating Team
Posts: 7015
Joined: 21 Dec 2015, 13:46
x 1324

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by white exec »

It's a shame we don't have one international standard for EV connection. Somewhat mirrors the state of electric light bulbs in the earliest days, and mains plugs/sockets worldwide even today.

My guess is that this situation will resolve itself, as sheer practicality and consumer and commercial pressure kicks in. At least China sounds as if it has managed to adopt a national standard, but then centralised decisions (for better or worse) are the norm there. China has a serious problem with urban air quality which puts ours in the shade (literally), so it is not surprising that some serious (and quite sensible) planning has taken place. Most of their EVs will never go outside the country. Those for export can easily have different connectors, for whatever standard(s) the rest of the world eventually gets to settle on.

If UK, EU or even US had decided on a single standard for their own territory, I guess we would all be welcoming that.

User avatar
Paul-R
Donor 2020
Posts: 5315
Joined: 07 May 2009, 16:24
x 758

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Paul-R »

Ah, standards.

Microsoft's view on the situation:

"We love standards. That's why we have so many of them".

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Well this particular charging point can't cope with a Tesla Model 3 being pugged in and the chademo being used by yours truly.
Please note currently no charger power is available for this charge
nf own work
nf own work
nf own work
nf own work
Regards Neil

User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8402
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
x 403

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by Mandrake »

Most (possibly all) dual/triple head rapid chargers cannot charge both CCS and Chademo at the same time, as they are both DC and there is only one AC to DC converter in the unit.

Some rapid chargers can charge AC and one DC (either CCS or Chademo) at the same time - so if you see a Zoe plugged into the AC cable you've got a chance of being able to use Chademo at the same time, and I have charged my Ion on Chademo beside a Zoe on the same charger using AC a few times now.

It depends on the make of rapid charger, the configuration of the charger and how much power is available to the unit, and it might result in the other car being throttled down in speed a bit if the power supply to the site can't support both operating at full speed simultaneously.

Some Tesla Model S/X owners plug into the AC side of rapid chargers either through ignorance or due to not having the Chademo adaptor, (giving them only 11kW instead of 43kW) so if you see a Tesla model S or X at a Rapid charger and it is using the AC connector you also have a chance of being able to use the Chademo connector at the same time.

You're unlikely to see a Model 3 owner using the AC connector though - while it will fit and work (at only 11kW) they should be using the CCS connector and would have to be fairly ignorant of the CCS socket on the car not to be using it...

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Thanks Simon. We had two alternatives on the way home so didnt hang around for the blue Tesla to finish. When we arrived there were 2 model 3's parked next to each other, the blue one was waiting for the white to finish and leapt on straight away. The Blue was on the CCS which showed 40% charge so we may have been some time.

I have now joined the Chargeplace Scotland club...just waiting for my RFID card to arrive. Should make things easier on our trips to the Border Towns.

REgards Neil

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

Well they said 3 to 5 days, landed on the mat this morning after ordering it on-line Thursday night. Chargeplace Scotland card all the way from Shoreham by the Sea West Sussex :-D I mean its like Scott's Porridge Porage Oats being owned by Pepsico :-D
nf own work
nf own work
Regards Neil

User avatar
bobins
Donor 2021
Posts: 4071
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
x 1266

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by bobins »

That Shoreham address is (or was) the Advanced Technical Development Centre for BP Chargemaster. I used to drive past the site every day.

User avatar
NewcastleFalcon
Posts: 16190
Joined: 25 Feb 2009, 11:40
x 1647

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by NewcastleFalcon »

bobins wrote:
14 Dec 2019, 19:06
That Shoreham address is (or was) the Advanced Technical Development Centre for BP Chargemaster. I used to drive past the site every day.
I think BP Chargemaster own/oversee the lot, CYC (Charge Your Car) and their services for ChargePlaceScotland, and Polar Plus.

I was a bit ignorant of the developments in Charging Infrastructure in West Yorkshire on our maiden voyage the other week. Engie (roughly 1/4 owned by the French Government) and the West Yorkshire Councils are to provide 88 new rapid charging installations, a handful of which are already operational.
Regards Neil

User avatar
mickthemaverick
Donor 2021
Posts: 6674
Joined: 11 May 2019, 17:56
x 1872

Re: Electric Vehicles-Infrastructure

Post by mickthemaverick »

I see on the prose there that you will get free electricity although you may have to pay for parking!! Surely that is a loophole in the free charge offer, if they are free to adjust parking fees in collaboration with the parking authority. Call me a cynic but I just get the feeling that it won't be as free as you might think given that you wouldn't be parking there at all if you didn't need a charge! However it is also designed to ramp up EV ownership which is not a bad thing but I have to wonder what the charges will be once they have a significant number of users? :)