406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

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ceet12
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406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by ceet12 » 18 Dec 2012, 00:45

Hello, ive posted on another forum as well so apologies again about that im trying to get a wide scope of answers as possible

i apologise about this being my first post, i have been reading this forum for little over 6 months and taking in some incredible knowledge

i currently have a 1998 R reg 2.1 td lx estate in white! i absolutely love this car to be honest, and my friend was emigrating so he sold me it for £100!

theres a couple of dents in the back door and wing but im not bothered the car drives like new, and imaculate inside! incredible car to drive, i also own an 05 mondeo tdci ghia and id take the pug any day just because i love the way it drives/handles etc

ive run into a few faults lately,, but ill probably start a new thread about that as im going to check a few things out tomorrow with my mechanic before i post

in this thread i was considering doing the (having done) the fuel pump swap that a few members here have done

ive sourced a car but im not sure the pump will fit, Its 1994/5 M Reg Citroen zx advantage 1.9 (im not sure if its the td or just the d as it was dark before in the breakers yard)

im assuming this is an xud engine?,i had a brief look and it did look like a bosch but im no expert and it was dark! ive seen a few cars mentioned that the pump will swap from but i dont think ive come across the zx? basically will this pump be able to fit on my 2.1 engine?

obviously i probably wont get the conversion done straight away but i thought i might buy the pump and put it in the garage

also what exactly would i need, ? so i can relay back to the mechanic removing it, (as i dont think ill have all tools)

ive heard ill need pump, lines injectors etc? is there anything else?

also ive heard that getting this pump change done can affect a few things because the lucas pump is an ecu and controls the revometer etc and air con.?

if i were to get this conversion done would i loose my ac? to be honest thats one thing i cant live without! if the ac is lost is there a way of getting it working again once/if the swap goes ahead?

Thanks again!

and i hope someone can help me with some of these questions

hopefully someone will reply before the zx is scrapped!

Thankyou

regards

Peter.N.
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by Peter.N. » 18 Dec 2012, 01:06

The Bosch pump is undoubtedly very good, finding one is the problem. I believe all Xantia 2.1s had the EPIC pump, the only car you are certain to get one from is a pre '96 XM. They did use them for a time in the 406 but I think they also may have ben EPIC.

If you get a pump you will also need the pipes as the fuel distribution is different, it will work with your old injectors though, the spec may no be exactly tyhe same but I doubt you will notice the difference.

Peter

ceet12
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by ceet12 » 18 Dec 2012, 01:15

Hi peter thanks for your prompt reply i appreciate it

does the pump then have to come from a pre 96 xm 2.1 ?

as ive found a 1994/1995 Citroen zx with the 1.9 d (poss td) engine and im certain this had the bosch on before (it was dark in the breakers)

can the pump be taken from a 1.9 and put on the 2.1. in this case can it be taken from this vehicle in particular? would this be a fully mechanical pump on this model (M REG 94/95) or IS IT simlar to the 406 1.9 td which i believe is a bosch mechanical but not fully ? am i right here?

or ideally does it need to come from a pre 96 2.1 xm like you say, finding one of them will be difficult tho!, So taking my chances buying this might be the best option and put it aside for when im ready!

thanks again peter!

kind regards

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spider
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by spider » 18 Dec 2012, 10:59

As far as I know early Citroen 2.1 pumps were mechanical, later ones were electronic (the acc cable was not on the pump on later ones it was on a potentiometer elsewhere in the engine bay)

I'm not sure an XUD9 / XUDT9 pump would be suitable as its a bit small but I could be wrong and I guess it could be wound up a bit.

A non turbo pump will not be suitable it may well run but it will not be able to deliver enough fuel on boost that's for sure, turbo pumps have a fueling unit to supply more when under boost.

Regarding 406's, 99% of 1.9TD's (they did not make a 406 1.9D only the TD) were Bosch and 99% of those were semi electronic advance with a needle sensor in one of the injectors. All 406 2.1's are electronic pumps.

Not sure if that's any help or if I'm just causing confusion. :)

Peter.N.
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by Peter.N. » 18 Dec 2012, 13:19

That's about what I thought Andy. The XMs were they only ones I can guarantee had fully mechanical ones, sadly I sent two on for scrap earlier this year I also sold the only loose pump that I had.

I don't know whether the 1.9 pump would work with the 2.1, the characteristics are quite different with the max torque coming up much lower in the rev range than the 1.9. Someone on here will probably know.

I think the 2.1 with the Bosch pump was the best IDI engine ever made, it will pull smoothly from tickover and return a better fuel consumption than a 2.2 Hdi. There must still be a few pumps out there, just a question of finding one. Keep and eye on ebay.

Peter

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CitroJim
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by CitroJim » 18 Dec 2012, 15:29

Why do you want to ditch the EPIC on the 2.1TD? It's a thoroughly good pump and unless you want to run chip fat or any other exotic fuel then I see swapping it as a very retrograde step.

If it's duff then I can give some advice on fixing it unless you've wrecked it running on veg or something...

A Bosch pump from an N/A engine will not do as it does not have the LDA boost overfuelling capability - the LDA looks like a UFO on the top of the pump.

The only Bosch pump you can really use is the VP20 from the early Xantia or lat'ish 405 1.9TD. This was the last fully mechanical and later Xantias and 406 1.9TDs used the Bosch AS3 which is a semi-electronic pump with timing under ECU control. Trying to retrofit the Bosch ECU in place of the Lucas ECU will be fraught with problem and frankly is not worth the effort. Be careful as the AS3 and VP20 look very similar externally but it will not work as the timing will remain fully retarded unless under ECU control. To help identification, the AS3 is usually armoured - another difficulty in itself - and has a pot on top of the throttle shaft with three wires exiting it; it also has what looks like an injector mounted below the distributor head.

One thing I'm not sure of is whether or not the EPIC cradle on the 2.1 has sufficient scope on it's mounting studs to allow a VP20 to be correctly timed. 1.9 engines that could use either a Lucas or Bosch pump had alternative stud mounts on the cradle for each type of pump; I'm not sure if the 2.1 EPIC cradle has or if the 1.9 cradle will fit the 2.1 engine. I don't think it will.

As said, you'll need Bosch delivery pipes and injectors too.

Then you'll need to rig up a throttle cable, a cold idle control and cold advance; the latter is electrical and can be wired to the glowplugs.

The old Lucas ECU must stay in place as it drive instruments on the dash and controls the glowplugs. The EML will remain forever on until the bulb is removed...

So, yes, it can be done. The 1.9 VP20 pump should be tweakable to give sufficient delivery of maximum fuel but I cannot say for sure if the mid-range fuelling or timing curve will suit exactly the 2.1 engine.

Somewhere on here is a post from someone who's done it and he reports all OK.

Personally though, unless there's a very good reason why, I'd stick to the EPIC.

I can possibly give further help if you wish to continue down this path :wink:

Hope that's been something of a help to start with anyway :)

ceet12
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Re: 406 2.1 lucas epic to bosch, sourced pump help & advice?

Post by ceet12 » 27 Jan 2013, 02:27

Thanks citro jim for the reply and everyone else, ive actually been unwell, so appolgies about the late reply and have not used the car much, im going to read your post in detail and post back later!

regards