Unsuccessful Lucas/Bosch swap attempt #1

[nametooshort]

I tried to swap the Lucas pump on my 1.8d 305 today for a Bosch pump that I found on a 1.9n/a Ducato engine. It didn't go so well.

I only had a day to do it in, which is not ideal, and i really needed the pug back, so I decided to just change the belts and put it all back together how it was.

I have been meaning to change the cam belt anyways, since I don't know the history of the car, and who knows how long it's been on there for, and I know XUDs have a habit of majorly self-destructing when the belt goes (like...not just bend a few valves like some engines, but often snap a rod and then punch a hole through the block), so I decided that it's better to be safe and change it. And the aux belt too while I am there, and oil and filters and the usual stuff.

So, I figured, since most of the tedious work involved in changing the cam belt is also involved in swapping pumps, I might as well try to fit the Bosch pump.

I took the bosch pump off the Ducato engine complete with it's cradle and sprocket, so that it's timing is not changed, the logic being that my 1.8n/a and the 1.9n/a from the Ducato would be similar enough for the Ducato's timing to be close enough to the Pug's to at least allow it to start and run, to use as a base setting for further tuning.

On the Ducato engine (and the other XUDs that I accumulated, from another Ducato, a Jumpy, and a LDV) it was possible to remove the pump without disturbing the timing by using a bent M13 wrench to undo the bolt under the pump, and undo the other bolts conventionally, and then the whole pump/sprocket/cradle assembly comes off in one go, still all timed.

So I happily undid all that stuff, and then the pump on my Pug still would not come off, it was connected to a metal front-plate! I didn't expect to find that, since I am still reasonably new to XUDs, and all my other ones did not have this part, it had some kind of plastic splash-guard or something, but you could wiggle the pump out.

It was looking like the only way to remove the damn thing was to pull the sprocket off the pump, and then take the pump off the cradle.

I didn't have a sprocket removal tool handy, and of course, since the engine is in the 305, there is no room to use a conventional puller, and the two bolt holes in the sprocket for the removal tool are M5 (I think?). I dind't have any new M5 bolts, but I found a couple of old ones in the junk box, and made a improvized removal tool out of half a VW aircooled alternator pulley with some holes drilled into it.

However, on attempts to pull the sprocket off, one of the M5 bolts broke off.

At this point I kinda gave up, and just put it all back together with the Lucas pump.

Ah well, better luck next time I guess.

I guess because this engine is from the 80s, and most of the ones I have are from the late 90s, it has a different design of cam belt housing or something, with that annoying metal back plate?

[CitroJim]

I made up a little sprocket puller for XUD engines... I have some pictures and diagrams of it...





And in use:



Cradle removed for clarity!!!

This puller is good for Lucas and Bosch pumps...

[nametooshort]

Ah yeah, M7, not M5, my bad.

My puller was similar pretty much, it was the bolts that failed tho. I only had a couple of old/rusty bolts of that size, and they must have been pretty weak since one of them snapped before the pulley came off.

Thanks for the sketch! Ill be sure to make something similar!

[CitroJim]

BE3 gearboxes are a good source of strong M7 bolts. That's what I used. You can 'borrow' a couple to get the job done without worry...

[nametooshort]

Oh, well, something to know for the future.

At least my car is back together and running I guess. I miss it already, its so ugly it's cool!



(its up on stands, you just cant see the stands...its not randomly levitating...YET).

[CitroJim]

I don't think they're ugly at all, not when judged against current stuff anyway...

[nametooshort]

That is very true, it just looks so odd, it seems that while 205s and C15s are still around, and easily recognized by most people, the 305 is almost extinct, nobody quiet knows what it is. It looks somewhat similar to a 205 from some angles, but bigger, and completely different from other angles.

Somebody once complemented me on the street as to how its nice to see an 'old Granada' still running. I was going to tell them that its actually a 305, and the fact that it has a Peugeot badge kind of gives it away, but since I have been into old cars for quiet a while now, I learned that when somebody says stuff like that, you should just nod and smile. I know this from bitter experience. I once had some old guy at a car show argue with me for 20 mins, trying to tell me that my VW was actually a Volvo, and that I don't know anything about cars. OK, I may not know much, but at least I know that my VW is definitely a VW and *not* a volvo.

I assumed they meant the Euro Ford Granada, I can't think of anything else called a Granada. But it looks nothing like my 305...

[CitroJim]

I really think he needed to go to SpecSavers.

Can't agree more on how to deal with those who think they know more about your car than you do. Been in a similar situation when I used to tow a caravan with a 405 1.9TD. Old boy opposite said I could make it a much better car for towing if had it chipped. I explained that it had a mechanical pump and no chip in the world could possibly help it.

He was absolutely adamant and would not be convinced that I knew what my own car had in the way of diesel pumps and how they worked...

I only shut him up by making a sarky comment about his Merc...

[nametooshort]

Did the 1.9td tow the caravan OK? I suppose if a 1.9 n/a can pull a Ducato with like 2 tons of bricks in it, then in a car it should be able to manage a caravan fine. These really do seem to be very under-appreciated engines, now that I begun to get to know this engine family, I realize there are still quiet a lot of them in circulation, and they seem to power pretty much most Euro stuff that's not German-engined from the 80s to...i dunno, probably early 2000s? And the fact that British postal service vans (which are still in plentiful supply in the UK) used them in a RWD application makes them perfect classic car conversions I think.

Ha, a chipped mechanical pump? That would be useful.

Is it somebody you often see? You should find an old/broken PC, take the CPU chip out, and epoxy it to your pump, pins up, and then show it to that guy and say ''look I got it chipped, it runs much better now .

[CitroJim]

You should find an old/broken PC, take the CPU chip out, and epoxy it to your pump, pins up, and then show it to that guy and say ''look I got it chipped, it runs much better now .

I like that idea..

Yes the 1.9TD 405 used to tow our little Monza a treat but in all honesty the rear suspension was a bit too soft. When I swapped it for a 1.9TD Xantia it was far and away the better car due to the hydropneumatic suspension. Honestly, apart from loss of performance you didn't know the caravan was on the back..

The XUD is still ubiquitous and a jolly good engine. When you think it's been about since 1982 in various forms and was a revelation then, it's stood the test of time very well. It's a very sweet thing and just ges on and on so long as you look after the cooling and cambelts.

I think it was the 305 and Talbot Horizon that were the first vehicles to receive the XUD...

Best XUD of all is the 2.1 (XUD11). That's my opinion and others will argue. Second best is the 1.8 Turbo (XUD7TE). in a 205 it's a real hoot and faster than the GTi..

The 2.0 HDi (DW10 series) we all rave about on here is basically and fundamentally an XUD with a different head and common rail injection.

[nametooshort]

The xud 11 is that triple-valve thing, right? It looks kinda like a XUD, but has 3 valves per cylinder, right? I think I saw a head from one of those once in a pile of XUD parts.

Is there such a thing as a XUD11 n/a? Or are they all turbo? Also, do I understand correctly that most later 11s got the digitally-advanced semi electronic pump, and only reasonably early ones got a 'normal' pump with mech advance.

The HDi seems cool but is not as DIY friendly. A friend of mine was running it in a 50s car, and the ECU kept throwing up errors all over the place, it took soooo much work to get it to run right, it was almost not worth it, considering the VW TDi (which has digital everything, including the throttle!) took like a day to set up. I think the HDi wasn't liking the exhaust system or something, I can't remember the details, but the HDi ecu seems to be very 'caring and emotional'. If only it was possible to talk to ECUs, and say ''no, you don't have to worry about the particulate filter, or the cat, you are in a 1951 car, you can smoke all you want the the authorities cant do anything''. But, alas, being a factory programmed ECU with not much scope for editing, you can't really talk to it.

I am kind of curious as to why you consider the 1.8 turbo the 2nd best? I would assume the 1.9 turbo would be? As far as I understand, the 1.8 was killed off quiet early on, it was only really used commonly in early stuff like C15s and 205s? So the 1.8, since it got canned early, never got all the evolution, like the 1.9 did. From what I understand, like with any engine, a lot of evolution took place, so the 1.9 was upgraded somewhat throughout it's life, so without knowing anything else, I would logically assume that the latest incarnation of the 1.9 turbo would be the 2nd best engine after the 11? Obviously I am assuming wrong, but could you explain why? Sorry about the boring questions, I just really want to get to know this engine family now.

I have only been exposed to XUDs for a few months, and already I am beginning to recognize different features from different years etc, and will soon be comfortable mixing/matching parts and actually build engines to my spec I think.

[CitroJim]

Yes, the XUD11 was indeed the 12 valve, two inlets and one exhaust. The 2.5TD engine as used in the XM was also a 12V but was not in any way related to the XUD. It's a great engine with balance shafts but a bit complex...

I believe there was an N/A XUD11 and I have a feeling it was 2188cc rather than the XUD11 Turbo which had a capacity of 2088cc.

Very early XUD11 engines had the Lucas DPC mechanical pump, later ones the BoschVP20 and as you say, the last ones had the Lucas EPIC fly-by-wire electronic pump. Despite what some think the EPIC was a wonderful pump but it hated even a sniff of veg and was a bit fragile...

I just like the 1.8 because it's a very free revver. So is the 1.9TD but I reckon the 1.8 has the edge. As I say, just a personal opinion. It may be that the 205, which is I admit, the only car I've sampled the 1.8 in, is a fun car anyway and the engine just seemed to really suit it.

The XUD9 did go through a lot of development. The early ones had square exhaust ports. Later they went round and later still, with the advent of the Bosch AS3 semi-electronic pump, the TDC-finding plug in the head was deleted.

The HDi in their intended fitments are very good and generally trouble-free in our experience. Yes, the ECU does keep a very motherly eye on things and it'll certainly let you know when something is amiss but generally they're very reliable and well-behaved.

The 110 2.0 8V HDi is a powerful thing combining the low-down grunt of the 2.1 with the free-revving nature of the 1.9TD. Best of both worlds

The 2.1TD really has a lot of low-down grunt but it runs out of steam quite quickly and is not a particularly revvy engine due to its really heavy pistons. They really weigh a ton!

The 1.9TD lacks the low-down grunt of the 2.1 but is a revvy little number for a diesel. Combine the two characteristics and you have the 2.0 HDi...

The 1.9TD with the BoschVP20 can be tweaked (or rather the pump can be) to really transform the engine. Xac's Cassy is well tweaked and goes like a scalded cat.

The N/A 1.8 and 1.9 XUD engines are good too. Lots of low-down grunt but not a lot of rev or top-end but they can return some amazing economy. I had a Lucas pumped 1.9 N/A 405 GRD for a few years and on my daily 20 mile work commute it never fell below 50mpg. It even towed a 17 foot caravan quite competently, albeit with no great turn of speed...

The XUD is a deservedly legendary engine and largely British too; developed in the main by Ricardo. The real secret to them is the design of the pre-chamber n the head, known as the Ricardo Comet.

[nametooshort]

Fascinating, thanks very much for the info!

[steelcityuk]

I'd say you hit all the nails on the head there Jim. I've not owned any N/A XUDs so can't comment on them, though I've drove a 306 with one fitted.

My favourites are the XUD11 turbo diesel and the 2.0 8v 110 HDi. Least favourite is the 2.5 turbo diesel due to cost and availability of parts and difficulty to work on.

Nametooshort, if you check out my Flickr pages there's photos of the 2.1 and 2.5 head side by side.

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Steve.