total confusion (806hdi 2.0 16 valves)

[aliben]

Hello everybody
I'm a newcomer who have had 5 peugeots(all diesel of course), the last 3 of which were 2.0 hdi(two 806 and a 406).
Peugeot diesel have got an overall good reputation(except for the engine compartment, awkward to work on).
The hdi system seems to be a very well thought system(as long as it works)see for more information the following link :
http://ftp.psyborg.rpg.pl/hdi/Citroen%2 ... Filter.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

However, I'm now looking for a good soul(preferably with sound knowledge), who could help me out of my misery, many thanks in advance.
Here we go ; I've got a 806 hdi 2.o 16valves(Engine Code: DW10 ATED4/L4 (110). I started driving it about 3 months ago, very sluggish in low revs but the turbo would nicely kick in at around 2500 revs. My previous 806hdi 2.0(Engine Code: DW10 TD/L3) used to pull much better in low revs and was earlier as for the turbo kick(around 2000revs).
Very soon, I noticed a strong smell of diesel. I looked under the bonnet ; number 1(?) injector(1st one on the left when looking at the engine)was bathing in a puddle of diesel and diesel was leaking quite badly.In addition to that, when starting in cold mornings, It sounded like it was starting on three cylinders for a few seconds then would idle normally. Put some injector cleaner and it did feel that it was starting better, generally speaking, but same in cold mornings, and also, the turbo push was felt a bit earlier(around 2300revs, but I don't know if it is linked). Never mind, decided to change injector, bought a second hand one from the net(thankfully pretty cheap : £20). It took me about 4 hours to extract the injector(eventually having to use a crowbar, believe it or not) but I got it out, and in one piece. I was over the moon, as you can imagine, first time ever extracted an injector, and on top of this, from a very awkward car to work on(people who have worked on the 806 won't probably disagree with this). Back to earth. The extracted injector was longer than the one I brought(no wonder, I didn't know then, that my 806 was a 16 valves but the bought injector was for an 8 valves). Also, it was literally coated with soot from head to toe(that's why it was so hard to take out I presume). Couldn't get the copper washer out and add to get the car back on the road so I cleaned the original injector, put a new washer, started up the engine. Smooth idling, better start in cold mornings, no more leak, but lots of black smoke and car hardly pulling( on the motorway, any slight slope would need a gear drop to 4th if not 3rd. Also, I could only feel the turbo at around 2800revs. Went to peugeot, they told me you must take the washer out otherwise, the injector will not sit where it should and consequently, the combustion would be improper(they advice me to put a bit of coke to uncease the washer. Took the injector out again (with its new washer), and got on to extract the old washer. After some fruitless attempts(few hours), I decided to take the risk to chisel the washer out (I wouldn't recommend it though but I started despairing) in order to slide a home made hook(from a bent skewer)underneath it so as to take it out. I did chisel the washer but never could get it out.I then put a bit of break fluid in the injector hole overnight. Next day, I managed(pretty easily, 1/2 hour) to get 1washer and a half out(there were already two in there but the other half went down the nozzle hole, ouch! We are now going underground). Nothing I could do now, except opening the head cylinder, too much for me, so I put a new washer on the injector, put it back into place
and started up the engine.
Aie! Hard knocking sound ,a bit like injectors' knocking, but much harder. Went driving mildly, hoping that the soft copper would not damage anything in there and perhaps would be pushed out of the cylinder via exhaust valves(wishful thought?). Anyway, after about 10 miles, knocking intensified 4 or 5 times and then, back to normal, smooth running. No more black smoke(injector sitting where it should I guess) but same lack of power.
Couldn't understand so I decided to remove injector again and get it tested(old english guy in Ferry lane London, £7.5/injector check) ; return : within the limit, very good spraying pattern as the man told me. After this, put it back on with new washer again but still no power.
I then decided to turn to other than the injector since it was good, even though it only seems logical than the problem must be related to it since it only started after removing it.
So I took off the exhaust having been told that the catalyser might be clogged out, there were both clean(not even a trace of that half washer???) but got rid of them anyway, just in case(hope won't fail emission test though), then turned my attention to turbo,,
. Couldn't check much as behind the engine(bulkhead side) and very inaccessible(if easy way to work on them, please do let me know), but the pipe coming to the inlet manifold does swell quite strongly when you rev the engine(don't know if it is sufficient to know the turbo's health state). I open the inlet manifold(lot of gunt and oily black deposit) and clean the inside as much as I could and also spread some degreaser into the manifold while engine was idling(hope I didn't cock-up). I noticed that quite a bit of smoke was coming out from the turbo pipe( connected to the inlet manifold, don't know if that is stantard). Also noticed that the egr pipe was almost completely blocked by that oily gunt(still to clean though, since I haven't found any other way to get to the egr valve except via the top on the engine and it seems well hard to disconnect. Actually, to this point, I still haven't found where is its connection point with the exhaust gas manifold(any advice appreciated). Then a friend of mine put it on the computer, twice, both times, the maf short circuit fault came up. I first put a copy maf that I had bought previously for my 406hdi but hadn't used, it still showed the fault. We disconnect the maf while on the computer. As we revved the engine, the figures recorded on the computer by the(now disconnected) maf kept on increasing or decreasing???Anyway, decided to go a buy a genuine maf(Siemens : £81, the copy was £34). Drove to the shop on the m25, same symptoms, turbo faintly felt at around 2800, 3000 in 2nnd and 3rd gear, even fainter in 4th, let alone in 5th. At 70 mph in 5th gear at 2600 revs, do not expect any acceleration unless going downhill. Anyway, arrived at the shop, bought a new air filter and maf(both genuine), put them on straight hoping for the good news... still hoping. After reconnecting new maf, stronger pull between 1500 and 2000revs,stronger but still much weaker than my previous 806hdi which was an 8 valver(I think)and as for high revs, it is now worse, can't feel the turbo at all and it feels as if something is preventing the car to accelerate, like if something was choking the engine. I really don't understand.
Finally, it might be useful for the good soul who can helps.
The car ,while on the road, hardly smoke even when pushing the gear (3rd one at 4000rpm). However, when revved on the spot, it feels, as on the road, like if something is choking the engine and it always misfired at 3150-3200rpm if stabilized there(as for a straight acceleration, it goes straight past that point with , maybe a tiny bit of misfire, almost unnoticeable if any) and starts smoking(blueish) slightly before that but when releasing the throttle, then big cloud of same color smoke.
The swirl diaphragm doesn't open(it should at around 2100rpm) even though all vacuum connections tight and vacuum pump working(though still looking for how much vacuum it should produce)nor does the inlet manifold valve close(constantly open). As for the turbo boost, the diaphragm rod does move (1-1.5cm)
the injector was coated with soot, where could this come from?
Any suggestion as to how to get to the turbo and test in and also the egr valve.
Any suggestion as to what to do now(except from scrapping th>

That is quite a novel, but I wanted to give as many details so to give the potential savior as much insight as I could.
Thanks to all for your patience and hope to hear from (some of you) soon>

[Peter.N.]

I can't remember all your post I'm afraid but the injector problem is quite common, its due to failure of the seal at the bottom and can result in nasty bits of carbon in the oil leading to turbo failure unless the oil is changed at more sensible intervals than recomemded. You need to get the old seal out and thoroughly clean the seat. You can get an extractor for removing these injectors which makes life a bit easier.

Peter

[fynnbar]

Next day, I managed(pretty easily, 1/2 hour) to get 1washer and a half out(there were already two in there but the other half went down the nozzle hole, ouch! We are now going underground). Nothing I could do now, except opening the head cylinder, too much for me, so I put a new washer on the injector, put it back into place and started up the engine.

Well, if you haven't bent a valve or broken a piston ring, you're very lucky ...
Still sounds like a MAF issue. Try running a new separate earth from the MAF plug to a good solid point on the chassis.

[imthejoker]

aliben ,
this all sounds familiar to my 806 hdi which is having the same problems , have you checked the solonoids on the front of the engine - just to the left of the bonnet release (3 in a row)are making a vacuum propperly , as for the diaphram lifting it should lift quickly and not slowly as mine was ,theres also another diaphram valve too -remove the air filter housing and its bolted to the side of the engine by two trox screws- check the voltage /vacuum on it(connect the maf for the voltage to flow tho) theres a filter built into the bottom of it that can be washed in fairy liquid and warm water than squeezed dried in kitchen roll. these little bits might help- iv only found this out as i helped the guys last week to sort mine out in Erith.
Their going to check the egr and the turbo on tues so If i find any more out that may be of help il let you know.
you said you went to ferry lane !! pm me if you want as i live on the view just down the a13.
Hope this helps.

Joker

[aliben]

Hello all and many thanks to Peter.N., fynnbar and Joker for your answers(it's always nice to see that some people out there are willing to help). I also apologize for not having got back to you sooner.
Second and last episode(hopefully). Skipping the details, we found 4 different problems, one probably related to the injector removal, not to the injector itself.
With the time ticking(I was supposed to go to Morocco, {by car, yes! this very one} in the next 3 days when I first wrote the post), I decided to check the egr valve. God bless peugeot's engineers, it took me about 2 hours 1/2 to
unscrew the 2 bolts holding the egr pipe at the back of the engine. I approached the problem from different angles, from over the engine, from the right side wheel arch, from the left side and from underneath. Eventually, managed to get egr valve-pipe out only to find it in pristine condition. Never mind, I blanked it with a metal plate and plugged the solenoid vacuum pipe.
Another potential problem ruled out but no improvement yet.
By then, my brother in law(truck driver in Africa, therefore a bit of a mechanic, by force)had come to my rescue.
As I was revving the engine and getting to the misfire point (around 3 150r/min) He press on the turbo boost(with a long rod), there we went, no more misfire or smoke, I then decided to rev up without touching the turbo boost but by mannualy opening the swirl valve, there we went again, no more misfire or smoke.
At that point, we decided to check the vacuum circuit more thoroughly. That was it, one of the pipe was very hard to blow into(after disconnecting it from the vacuum pump) so we redrilled the hole in the connector, thereafter, air (or vacuum) was coming through.
We then decided to check the swirl diaphragm, which actually had a crack. My bro in law send for... superglue(Africa drivers' best friend), one drop on the crack... everything fine. Since I was slightly skeptical about the efficiency and durability of this "method" he went on to tell me that in Africa, they fix the brake diaphragm(120psi) with superglue and it works fine(usually). Also, I saw, directly underneath the diapragm, a broken piece of plastic, ball shaped. That actually was the swirl diaphragm rod's tip end that pushes open or close the swirl business letting more or less air into the manifold at the time of acceleration. We fixed this(the african way of course) by drilling a hole across the rod into which we slid a bent piece of metal hanger which we tightened on the other end to the the swirl "flap". Sorry, I don't know the correct terminology but I can try to upload some pictures if it helps.
Lastly, I checked that short piece of rubber pipe(turbo) that people often found to be split, mine was fine but the top collar ring was not tightened properly even though I pulled down the pipe quite strongly and nothing moved but I managed to tightened the collar's 8 mm screw about three full turns.
After all this, put everything back together, as soon as the engine started I felt "that's not the same car!" Nice torque, come 2000 revs, really starts pulling, come 2300, turbo kicks in, 2500 , turbo's full blast, what a change. By then, I was supposed to travel the next day, which I did and drove 5000 miles in 16 days without problem. It has been(ever since)the best motor I ever had. Again I thank all those who share their experience thereby seeking to help others and I also thank the administrators of these forums who help people saving quite a lot of money. Though a "bit" long ,I hope this post will be of use to others. Many thanks to all.

aliben