Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

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StuartR
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 18:55

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by StuartR » 29 Aug 2003, 22:08

205D J92 130K miles
I've been having occasional problems with starting that I can't put my finger on and Id appreciate some advise if anyone out there has any ideas.
The first time I noticed it was about 6 months ago, the heater plug light went on but no starter. I had to just fiddle with all the starter cables and it suddenly started after 10mins of hair pulling. I thought it must have been a contact lossened when I changed the oil, left it, relaxed, but it came back!
Its been about every 3-4 weeks that it happens usually once then goes away. Must say I don't use the car that much so it may happen more often. About near 2 months ago it wouldnt start at all so was forced to fiddle. I tried the starter leads, no! then worked back to the heater plug relay box. I realized this was the only set of contacts I hadnt cleaned previously so I give ends a quick sand down (they didnt look great) and it started. So I thought this was the problem give the whole thing a good clean at home and relaxed.
It came back 2-3 wks later and then 2-3 wks later again. Each time it seemed to be me moving the wires around randomly then tring again that started it. But it takes a while and doesn't seem to make a sense.
When I bought the car 18ish mths ago it had just had new heater plugs(DIY fitted), a new battery 2mths previous, and a new starter motor (although I think it was actually reconditioned at a local shop he mentioned at the time-- he said if the alternator goes just take it to blah blah they recondition it, they do starters there too-- gave it away realy)
The last time it happened I listened under the bonnet as I turned the key, the heater relay clicks, and then the starter clunks, which means the solinoid must be engaging the starter on the flywheel but nothing more.
Apparently the current is very high required to then turn the engine and I've read that any fault in the conections along this curcuit mean enough want get through to power it. It seems to me that the only thing left is the earth on the starter which is internal then through the engine block to the battery neg.
If its internal to the starter I think thats beyond me and could be caused by a bad overhaul, but it does seem to work ok.
I have noticed that the very thick earth cable that joins the engine block to battery neg seems to have frayed a bit at the join to the engine (caused by the engine moving back and to). It looks like of the 20-30 odd strands about 3,4 or more have snaped. So it could be that this is not always allowing enough current flow.
I've picked up a good cable and clamp to replace it just need an earth cable to join it to the car body too.
By the way it happened again yesterday turned the key just kept tring wouldnt start so left it as it was raining so wasn,t going to stand in the rain under the bonnet. Came back 2 hrs later started first time, didnt touch a thing??
I don't realy trust it any more so I need to sort this out any help out there please.
Could it be the starter ? the alternator ? they seem ok
help please!!!!!!!!!!

Dave Burns
Posts: 1916
Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
x 2

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by Dave Burns » 30 Aug 2003, 02:16

Burnt contacts in the solenoid, it doesn't just push the starter pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel ring gear, it also closes the contacts at the end of its travel, these contacts switch the motor on.
So the solenoid can click without the starter turning, if you are brave enough a common method of starting in this state is to bypass the contacts, by shorting accross the two cable connector nuts on the end of the solenoid, (inside the solenoid the heads of these bolts are the contacts, so you will only be doing what the solenoid does when its working properly, but be warned it will spark a bit untill good contact is made so you need a good heavy screwdriver or the like to bridge with) you will need an assistant to turn the key to the start position so the gear is engaged prior to bridging accross or the motor will just spin and not turn the engine, otherwise you will also have to manualy energise the solenoid at the same time, not easey.
The other starter faults that will cause the same symptoms are worn or stuck brushes, but if it turns when bridged that rules out the brushes.
The pinion gear can become worn and instead of sliding past the ring gear teeth can hit them square on, preventing full travel along the shaft and fail to close the contacts.
Dave

woodhead722
Posts: 161
Joined: 30 Oct 2001, 04:57

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by woodhead722 » 30 Aug 2003, 03:10

I have had this problem for EIGHT YEARS !!!!!!
Click on 'search'
Search for member 'woodhead 722', and look for topic 'diesel starting' you will see my key method.......may work for you, along with advice from...you've guessed it Dave Burns!

StuartR
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 18:55

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by StuartR » 13 Sep 2003, 17:30

Thanx for the replies, I guessed dave burns would have some useful advice and I'l search for that past problem advice too.
Quick update, I've changed the battery neg cable as planed and it seemed better and I was driving with renewed confidance ..... but happened again. I didn't lift the bonnet just turned the key again and again and it went. Happened a second time (after leaving the car for a week in garage after going away) this time the second start atempt I held the key after turning it full for a few seconds longer and it went, almost as if it needed a bit of time to build up the current?
I'm not sure if its good or bad that you've had the same for 8yrs. Its not something I'm happy leaving.
About the starter Dave, it was supposed to be new when I bought the car (18mths ago) but could well have been overhauled. Surly an overhaul means that the brushes and contacts have been sorted out and renewed, or is it possiblity of a bodged job.
Could I replace those solenoid contacts myself as the solenoid doesn't seem to be as much a sealed unit as the starter itself.

Dave Burns
Posts: 1916
Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
x 2

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by Dave Burns » 14 Sep 2003, 17:48

In 15 years I have'nt had a problem with one of these starters and the cars have allways gone well past the 100k mark, infact my 205 was just 25 miles short of 200k when I parted with it, and apart from routine maintenance had no other engine trouble apart from a burnt out stop solenoid, which even then didn't stop me from using the car, just took the spring and plunger out and off it went again.
The stationary contacts in older starter solenoids are just the heads of the copper bolts that secure the cables, they could be taken out and re-surfaced with fine emery cloth, same goes for the moving contact but you have to make sure they are sanded true so they present the greatest contact area to each other, or they will soon burn out again.
Would think that its still possible to do that but not sure, manufacturers don't change things for the consumers benefit, only their own.
Dave

woodhead722
Posts: 161
Joined: 30 Oct 2001, 04:57

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by woodhead722 » 15 Sep 2003, 00:26

Stuart, you will also have a better chance of starting (or I do), if you let the heater plugs do their thing before you try and turn the engine, with the repeated key turn method I mentioned.
As Dave pointed out, it suggests tired contacts, which would be assisted by 'full attention' from the battery, as opposed to a fairly heavy current to the glow plugs at the same time.
My problem always seems worse with a hot engine or weather.

StuartR
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 18:55

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by StuartR » 15 Sep 2003, 23:05

Thanx again, Dave you say you took out the 'stop solenoid' spring and plunger do you mean the one in the starter (honest question, bit confussed) and doesn't taking the plunger and spring out stop it from working?
Thats just by the way as the only thing I'm conserned about is unscrewing the solenoid casing and everything falling out with springs flying and bits that never go back in again (a bit like memories of seeing how you're new tape recorder works as a kid)
I did have a quick look inside when I took the starter off but left it.
Does any one now before I try can you get to the contacts easily from the outside, or inside and easiler put together after.
**Where's my little 205 picture gone??
if only they new how long it took me to animate that thing!!***

Dave Burns
Posts: 1916
Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
x 2

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by Dave Burns » 16 Sep 2003, 02:32

Stuart sorry for confusing you, I was refering to the stop solenoid on the injection pump.
As for the starter solenoid there is only one thing to do if you want to know whats wrong with it, get your spanners out.
Dave

StuartR
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 18:55

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by StuartR » 28 Oct 2003, 22:48

I'm having problems again!!
Couldn't start again couple of days ago.
I'd already started it 2 or 3 times in the space of have an hour during a short journey but then nothing
It did start after a bit a wait and fiddle time which ended in me turning the key while a passing helper tapped the starter with a block of wood (always handy in your boot)
This was my dads advise as I thought the solenoid or pinion was jamming.
By the way bridged the contacts as advised by dave burns which span the motor but wouldn't travel onto flywheel.
So i've taken the solenoid off contacts look ok and I really don't think its the starter but I'm currently a holder of of many quotes but whats the point of panicing and just buying new bits if it doesn't help, and you can't afford it!
I went to the place that the previous owner had the starter overhauled (couple of years ago, not much use since) and said its very unlikely to be the solenoid, and could check the motor, but again whats the point.
He did say though he has noticed a voltage drop to the starter in the past on this car and has fitted a relay on the ignition.
HAS ANYONE EVERY HEARD OF THIS BEFORE??
Unfortunately there's an immobolizer fitted on the heater plug and starter phazes of the ignition key. It's only the very basic type which is a kind of flat key which has got basic circuit board in it, but could this be altering the flow of current or creating a slight voltage drop which means at times the pinion slides across the starter but hasn't got the energy to get it meshed with the flywheel?
Sorry this is so long but I think that the devils in the detail here, oh and as I sat there beginning to think about leaving the poor thing with the boy racer in the carpark over night I looked at the clock and it read 130666 miles, hopefully not to unlucky[:(]
Also does anyone know how to check for a voltage drop to the starter and could you test the starter once out of the car by just connecting it to a battery and the same for the solenoid too.

StuartR
Posts: 64
Joined: 18 Mar 2002, 18:55

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by StuartR » 28 Oct 2003, 23:29

Just searched in Citroen part and under reluctant starter about a BX deisel someone said that a cable from the solinod to the battery + will start the car is that safe?

Dave Burns
Posts: 1916
Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
x 2

Pug 205D starting problems !!!!!!!

Post by Dave Burns » 30 Oct 2003, 05:21

Yes Stuart that is safe, that is basicaly what turning the ignition switch to the starter position does anyway, make sure its out of gear though or it can be very unsafe, and don't leave it connected once the engine is running.
The bit about bridging the contacts to spin the motor will do just that and only that, to engage it with the ring gear and start the engine the solenoid has to be powered up too, and before the motor.
The best way to eliminate all other wiring from the equasion for fault finding is to bridge the solenoid terminal with the main battery feed terminal on the starter motor with a screwdriver, if this method turns out to be 100% reliable then the fault is not with the starter motor but with the wiring from the ignition switch that operates the solenoid, or the the ignition switch its self.
Dave