wouldn't start (-14 though), starter ruined, cambelt slipped

willy · Post by **willy** » 07 Jan 2011, 19:31

Happy New year to you all.

I am not new to this forum just forgotten my old user account.

The car is a 1996 406 1.9TD saloon

Before Christmas the car was taking a few turns to get it started but when it did was running absolutely fine. Then on Boxing day ready to go see the family couldn't get it started full stop. It would turn but showed no signs of started. Flattened battery trying to start it and wouldn't even jump start at first. Then with some serious turning and priming the manual pump and with now new glow plugs fitted (what a fiddly job) I got it started.

Problem was it now sounded like an old tractor, definitely not right. Possible preignition problem. White smoke out of exhaust and lots of black soot on the ground near the exhast.

Anyway I took the risk of driving it 100 miles in this condition and although it sounded very loud it did not have a depreciable loss of power or overheated.

Got to our destination and forgot all about car. then couldn't start it the next day at all, starter motor was seriously smoking so ordered a new one and changed the starter motor. It turned over much more robustly now but still would not start without a jump start and more priming of the manual pump.

I decided it was the timing belt and checked the full length of it with the covers off and found it half split from the root of one tooth and the timing was out by about one tooth.

set a new timing belt and new water pump yesterday (thanks to the detail on this forum) and it started first time now without the tractor noise and white smoke but now it has a lot of blue smoke and still a lot of black soot. Do I have a more serious problem now because of the slipped timing belt? Should I call it a day?

Willy

spider · Post by **spider** » 07 Jan 2011, 19:47

They don't generally bend valves if the cam timing was out too far it would snap the cam usually.

You may have caught it in time, as you say it starts easily now.

It could just be unburned remnants in the cat (is it cat? , some are even at that age)

I would see how it goes for a while, it might settle. Ensure pump timing is correct, although by the sounds of it, it is.

Is it really blue smoke as oil burning is quite rare. ?

Post by **CitroJim** » 07 Jan 2011, 20:20

You were lucky Willy (welcome back to the forum!)

I'm with Andy here.

If it started easily and runs fine with no untoward noise than there's not a lot wrong. The smoke is almost certainly down to a lot of accumulation of unburned fuel in the back box. It's big and can hold lots.

Now you have a new belt and water pump, give it a good 'Italian Tune Up'. that is, run it along a clear road at high speed in third gear with the engine working hard at highish revs.

That'll burn away any excess rubbish in the exhaust.

I've known a cat fail after overheating but it normally collapses and blocks. You'll know if it has as the engine won't pull the skin off a rice pudding.

It is never the time to call it a day with a 1.9TD, ever...

willy · Post by **willy** » 07 Jan 2011, 20:47

Thanks for your replies Jim and Andy. I will put everything back together tomorrow and give it a good run and see what it's like. I hope you are both right because I was a bit depressed when I started it today and saw the blue smoke.

One thing I forgot to mention is my theory on what caused the belt to break a tooth and skip. I thought that the coolant had frozen and the water pump could not rotate, do you think this makes sense? My only doubt to this theory is that I took some of the drained off coolant and put it into the freezer and although it did go a bit slushy it did not freeze solid and measuring the temperature of my freezer I got -20. So why would that stop the water pump from rotating on a day that had only reached -14 overnight?

Post by **CitroJim** » 07 Jan 2011, 20:55

What you say is very possible Willy. It sadly claimed the life of a V6 around the same time...

Fingers crossed all is good after a good run but honestly, if it starts on the button, there's nothing major wrong...

Post by **myglaren** » 08 Jan 2011, 00:04

Perhaps just being slushy introduced enough drag on the water pump to slip the belt a tooth.

spider · Post by **spider** » 08 Jan 2011, 09:55

I suppose its possible.

To recall a story, around 93-94 I had a MK3 (CVH) escort and it did not have any antifreeze in it, over Christmas that year we had a big freeze and I did not use the car for a good week. Of course it was frozen solid (core plugs popped out etc)

Now, the thing was at the time I did not know I just tried to start it, it did start but sounded like one of those "Mr Frosty" machines

, and that was with these engines liking to break belts and the belt being an unknown age.

I guess the relevance to this topic is : Anything is possible I suppose. I've had one pump seize (non PSA as well) and snap the belt.

Disclaimer: We are going back to before I knew what I was doing (some might still say that's the case)

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jan 2011, 10:17

spider wrote: Disclaimer: We are going back to before I knew what I was doing (some might still say that's the case)

Hardly Andy

I think you've established your bona fides beyond all possible doubt

willy · Post by **willy** » 08 Jan 2011, 20:32

good evening

well I put everything back together today (how hard is that top rear timing belt cover very bad design) and then started the car and took it for a "italian tune up" after precariously driving it around the block.

The timing belt has fixed the noise almost definitely but...

... then took it home and started it again. The blue smoke is still present and there is a misfire from idle to about 1600 revs enough to feel through the seats. After 1600 revs the misfire is not at all noticeable.

I am now more inclined to agree with both Jim and Andy that there cannot be anything seriously wrong as it starts very easily and runs with no power loss at all but what is now happening with the misfire and blue smoke and are they related?

They certainly were not there before the timing belt slipped.

Peugeot 406 1.9TD 1996 saloon.

spider · Post by **spider** » 08 Jan 2011, 20:43

I wonder if you have a leaking injector, or dribbling.

The other possibility is perhaps the pumps electronic advance mechanism is playing up (either the signal from the injector or the ECU itself), I think internal issues in the pump electronic advance are quite rare, Jim would know this point for sure)

Does it actually "sound" OK though at idle ? , if it sounds rough or 'knocky' then that points to timing issues usually. The vibration however makes me suspect an injector. Possibly slightly leaky.

Examine the leakoff pipes (the small rubber pipes between the injectors, and the end 'cap' one too) , although you usually get running issues and starting issues with these but its worth a minute looking at them for splits / damage.

Do you have an engine management light (orange / yellow "K" light) ? , you should have one and it should light up with the ignition on and go off after starting.

willy · Post by **willy** » 08 Jan 2011, 20:52

Andy,

Could be the injectors I'll check these.

the engine sounds fine now just missing a beat every 5-10 seconds or so almost like the noise a car makes when it is about to stall but not so severe.

I do have a management light and it does go off after start-up.

If it was the injectors could that cause blue smoke?

What if the timing being out has somehow damaged the valve seals and this now allows oil to pass into the cylinder, thus causing blue smoke. would this also cause misfiring?

willy

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 09 Jan 2011, 10:03

why would an injector siddenly start weeping from a belt slip, if it was not weeping before hand,

for the timming out to damage the stem seals it will have bent valve/s,

are you sure the belt only sliped/jumped 1 tooth or so,

first thing i would do is re/check the belt and mainly pump timming,,

then the next step would be a compresion test,

regards malcolm