1.9 to 2.1 conversion?

siraff · Post by **siraff** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:19

Hello all.
I've got a partner combi and the engine has let go. I've been offered a 605 2.1td which is break only after a bump and since it will be available I was wondering if I can use the engine in my partner?
I know I'll have to do the exhaust downpipe and intercooler plumbing but how about mounts and gearbox/etc? Can I use the 1.9 mounts on the 2.1 block/box?
If it fits it would save me quite a bit in having to source another DW8. Obviously it would give worse MPG too but I can live with that as it doesn't do high miles anyway.
They're both manual, both diesel but the origional is a DW8 none turbo. The 605 is the 12v turbo version.
Thanks in advance.
Simon.

spider · Post by **spider** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:28

Without being 100% sure, here are my thoughts:

The mounts are the same, or nearly the same.

The gearbox you currently have may not quite fit (too small) , so matching a clutch up may be an issue. The 605 box might fit but then you will may have issues getting the release mechanism to work (hydraulic vs cable) and maybe driveshaft issues.

If the box you have does fit, expect rocket acceleration (an NA box on a turbo can do that), you may need to source a 306TD gearbox

The XUD11 is electronic apart from early models, you will need all the wiring / ECU etc. It is possible to use a mechanical pump though.

Intercooler will need to live somewhere (iirc it is at the front on a 605, 406 style)

Brakes will probably need upgrading, although I do seem to remember the Partner brakes are actually very good when in good condition as they are 306 (usually Bosch) ones.

Insurance company may go nuts when you tell them what you have done too.

Exhaust might be an issue as you say.

Radiator might not be up to cooling the 2.1 unit, although I am not sure. I somehow think not. Turbo radiators tend to have better flow rates compared to N/A units.

My summary: Yes, but if the 605 is the electronic XUD11, take all the wiring ( ! ) , or expect you will need a XUD9TD pump I think and a lot of adjustment (it can be done) , it will be a fair bit of work, including making some things fit (hoses etc) but a good conversion I think.

I toyed with the idea of doing this to my 205TD but with that being a 5door I decided against it (plus I have no working facilities)

I would love to hear others thoughts about this though (Jim especially actually)

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:30

I don't know about the Partner but certainly when people have looked at this in a Xantia it has turned out a very difficult conversion as the 1.9 and 2.1 engine mounts are different to the extent that it is not easy to fabricate new ones.

As it's a turbo, you'd need to fit an intercooler and if the 2.1TD has the Lucas EPIC Fly-by-wire pump (although if the donor is a 605 then more likely the pump is a mechanical Bosch) the you need its ECU and you'll have a big wiring headache.

The biggest impediment is the gearbox. The 2.1 uses the ML5 which has a hydraulic clutch, cable operated gear linkages and different driveshafts.

The transmission is the showstopper. Shame as the 2.1TD would give you better economy but given the engineering difficulties, you're far better off sourcing a replacement DW8 or XUD 9 for it.

Sorry

siraff · Post by **siraff** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:44

Thanks, guys. I was thinking about the radiator and intercooler from a hdi partner (There is a set I can have for about £10). It's the mounts/driveshafts that are the bother. I can have different ends put on the shafts so if I could use the 1.9 shafts with 2.1 inner ends that could be done.
Would using the 1.9 'box be a big no no, then? I presume it wouldn't take the torque? Jim - you say it would give better economy - is that in the same way as I've always had better economy from the TD 306's than the none turbo ones? I don't get how it works?

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:56

Andy, sorry, I posted at the same time as you and did not see your post until now. It was not intentional...

As you say Andy, the 1.9TD BE3 'box can be made to fit but the flywheel/clutch will need changing and I'm not sure if a 1.9TD flywheel will fit the 2.1. I suspect it will but I can't guarantee it.

The problem with the BE3 is that behind a 2.1 it is marginal on being able to handle the torque and it is likely to have a short life and potentially go out with a bang with bits of the diff exiting stage-left from the bellhousing.... This is the main reason why the 2.1 has the ML5 gearbox.

The 2.1TD is a slogger of an engine that develops shedloads of torque but is not a revver and mated with your existing gearbox things would be hopeless. Even with a 1.9TD gearbox it'll still be under-geared for best performance and economy. There was never a BE3 with sufficiently high gearing for the 2.1.

Again, I'm not sure about shaft ends. The 2.1 shafts are very thick (again for the torque they have to handle) and thicker than 1.9TD ones.

2.1TD vehicles also have uprated brakes.

The economy comes from the 2.1 ability to pull a very high top gear. At 70 its doing 2400rpm (about the same as my V6!!!)

spider · Post by **spider** » 28 Oct 2010, 20:57

I think the 1.9 box physically will not fit to the XUD11, which is the main problem. I think if it did it may not last that long, although they are quite reasonable usually though.

Not sure what else to add really

, I posted my thoughts quickly in my reply above.

Everything is possible, but its a question of time / money really.

An 'easier' option would be an XUD9 (as the earlier partners had these) and going up from there you could use a XUD9T (front mounted intercooler) , as the turbo XUD was never fitted in the Partner (not to UK models at least as far as I know) and would be a good 'conversion'

I'll stick my neck out here and say the 1.9 XUD (even the N/A unit) is a lot better than the DW8

spider · Post by **spider** » 28 Oct 2010, 21:03

CitroJim wrote:Andy, sorry, I posted at the same time as you and did not see your post until now. It was not intentional...

Its fine

I think we are more or less saying the same thing really. Nearly everything is possible but the work needed to do this properly and reliably is quite high to say the least.

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Oct 2010, 21:05

spider wrote: I'll stick my neck out here and say the 1.9 XUD (even the N/A unit) is a lot better than the DW8

I'll agree wholeheartedly there Andy..

My thinking that a BE3 would physically fit is based on the 205 GTi lads using a BE3 on the end of a 2.0TCT XU10J2CTE (Activa) engine that was also always mated to an ML5 in it's proper application. The XU10 and XUD11 bottom end castings are very, very similar

They put 1.6GTi gearboxes on the end of it for the blinding acceleration the combination gives.

siraff · Post by **siraff** » 28 Oct 2010, 22:24

Right from what I can gather then the 1.9 box will most likely go on with little modification (I don't mind sorting flywheel and clutch) but it's probably not worth it. I think I'll price up some driveshafts tomorrow and check the lengths/thickness of each. If the big inners can be made to meet the 1.9 shafts that would make it a bit easier. Mounts wise - how far out are they likely to be? I think the shafts/mounts are the largest issue at the moment. Pipes/wiring/etc I can do very easily apart from the ecu but if that's all part of a loom from the car it can stay as such and I'll just join it into the partner loom as it already does.
Brakes wise I suppose I could uprate them but they are really very good already. I don't tend to use them hard anyway as my driving style is quite smooth and relaxed so I use engine braking more.
I like the idea of 2400rpm at 70. That's at least 600 less than it currently does and it would have all the guts to pull it too. Much more relaxed.