406 HDi 110 Dream Car Turning into a Screaming Nightmare!!!

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Chris56000
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406 HDi 110 Dream Car Turning into a Screaming Nightmare!!!

Post by Chris56000 » 02 Jun 2010, 23:11

Hi!

Following recent redundancy I had a chat with my Dad who has a '406 2.2 HDi 136 Executive I decided to go for one myself, but as my insurance is frightful I went for the HDi 110!!!

Unfortunately my dream car has turned into a Screaming Nightmare only a week after I got it!!! I bought it from the North East, and had no problems with the 220-mile trip home to Sutton Coldfield and then subsequently to Morrisons in Tamworth, but on trying to back out I found reverse gear wouldn't go in, fortunately I had my friend with me who managed to get it in after a lot of struggling!!!

Since then I've found 1st is impossible, 2nd is extremely difficult, 3rd, 4th, 5th and reverse will go in with a bit of grinding sometimes!!! I've taken it to my local recommended repairer who isn't certain of the cause either!!!

The clutch takes up smoothly enough when I can get a gear - in fact it'll pull away from a standstill in 3rd, albeit slowly. The engine (I think!!!) is DW10ATED and the gearbox ML5T.

I've checked the brake/clutch fluid and its right up to the filler neck and there's no leakage. The garage chappie doesn't think the Clutch Slave Cylinder's at fault, he suspects the gear-change cables but honestly isn't certain!!!

Even with the engine switched off its very difficult to get gears in, which is why I don't think its synchro. trouble, but clutches and gearboxes are far too expensive to be guessing with, can anyone confirm its the cables please? I've also texted him to suggest he replaces the oil (75W-80 GL5 spec) and the lower driver's side engine mount, is it worth my while having this replaced as well? Can anyone comment on ML5T g/b and DMF troubles?

I've also got my PP2000 tackle on order together with a Parts/Manual CD by the way! Will the PP2000 tackle activate correctly on a home laptop and download any engine/BSI software updates it finds or needs and can I reprogram any future replacement electronic bits OK with the tackle? (I got the "Confidential Code" card with the car BTW!)

Sorry for my first (and long!!!) post - this is the first car I've had with so many toys in it!!!

Chris Williams

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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim » 03 Jun 2010, 06:08

Hi Chris and welcome :D

Sounds to me like the gearchange cables are worn. There are two cables from the stick to the gearbox and if these stretch then gear selection will be difficult. Normal symptoms are failure to engage reverse initially and a floppy gearchange.

The cables (if like a MK2 Xantia) are not too expensive but a bit of a 'mare to replace as the exhaust will need to be dropped.

I don't know if the same applies to the 406 but the gearchange cable arrangement on the Xantia changed between the MK1 and MK2. MK1 systems were a lot better and much more reliable than the later MK2 although about 5 times more expensive to fix in the rare event they did fail.

It is very unlikely to be a problem with the 'box itself or clutch.

Initially, have a look at the two cable terminations on the gearbox and ensure one or other of the cables has not jumped off or become loose in its anchorage point. They are held into their anchorage points by spring clips and conceivably, if one has popped off it might cause your problem, especially if it appeared to happen suddenly.

Chris56000
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Post by Chris56000 » 03 Jun 2010, 19:44

Hi!

Thanks for the reply Jim!!!

Just had a new pair of gearchange-cables fitted by my local repairer (£215.60!!!) alas to say its only a bit better!!! I asked the chappie about the mountings & the gearbox oil, he said the mountings were absolutely fine but the oil had gone all "silvery" with bits in it so it looks like the synchromesh has had it!!!

Worse, the warranty insurer wants a detailed report with pictures before they'll authorise a repair, so that means a sojurn to the gearbox specialist in the morning!!! The Haynes Book Of Fairy Tales is no use as per usual - it just tells you "repairs are impracticable by the DIY owner" like they all do now...!!! Can anyone offer a suggestion as to why it should go suddenly without obvious prior warning e.g., noises, increasing difficulty in engagement etc?

I've got my Manual CD but the drive in my laptop won't read it, which doesn't bode well for the PP2000 installation either...!!!

Chris Williams

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Post by Citroenmad » 03 Jun 2010, 22:11

Welcome to the FCF Chris :)

You did the right thing buying a 2.0HDi 110 over the, sometimes, problematic 2.2 136. The 2.0s are usally pretty hardy engines and ive never heard of gearbox problems.

What year and mileage is your 406?

Early on in the C5s production the gearbox was changed, only on the 110 models. The only way you can tell is reverse is not in the conventional place below 5th gear, its up next to 1st - you have to pull the neck of the gearstick up to engage. Im not sure if 406s got the later gearbox though? And im not sure if it was changed due to problems with it, i didnt think so.

New oil would most likely help, the silveryness could be as a result of grinding gears when trying to select them?

Many cars have the 2.0HDi box, im sure if you need to one would be easy to source, just be careful as there are a few different types.

Chris.

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Post by Chris56000 » 07 Jun 2010, 11:29

Hi!

Its a Y-reg, registered 12 March 2000, mileage 96,116 on purchase, now 96,455 (bought from Newton Aycliffe, its done one journey home, one trip to Morrisons 7 miles away from where I live, failed in Morrisons car-park, done 7 miles back with help from a friend with the gears, then 15 miles to/from the Transmission Specialist. I'm unwilling to drive it further without an expert inspection as in case I cause more damage!).

The Engine is DW10ATED/RHZ type and the Gearbox ML5T (I think!!!) with reverse at bottom-right next to 4th. I've had a local repairer replace the two gearchange cables, but its still far from gratifying! I did ask the chappie who fitted the cables about replacing the oil but he thought the internal condition of the g/b didn't make it worthwhile!

I *cannot* select either 1st or 2nd with the engine switched off, 3rd/4th/5th and reverse'll go in but the only way I can get 2nd is when changing down at about 20-25 mph, and 1st'll only go in with a lot of graunching at about 5mph!

I've got half-a-ton of paperwork on the way for it including the genuine ML5T Paper Overhaul Manual, and am currently trying to get the Dealer I bought it from (purchase date 25 May 2010) to arrange an inspection - I got a free 3-month £500 warranty with it but the Warranty Insurer insists on a Chapter-and-Verse Report which'll cost me £250 + VAT from a Transmission Specalist, more than a serviceable complete exchange g/b for the thing! The T/S quoted me £675 for a reconditioned g/b fitted by them with 12 months warranty!

I've emailed the Dealer about it as advised by Consumer advice forums and CAB but had no response yet from him, has anyone got any cheaper suggestions? - I'd be willing to take the thing apart myself if I can get a good 1st/2nd gear/synchromesh unit separately!

Chris Williams

PS!!! There's no whines, grumbles or moans when I *can actually get it in any of the gears* by the way!!!

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Post by CitroJim » 07 Jun 2010, 12:14

That's an odd failure Chris. Normally the ML5 is about as bombproof as a gearbox can get and it's strong too. The only known problem mon them is a tendency to eat 3rd grear synchromesh but this never causes an enagement problem par-se, just a light crunch.

The silvery oil is worrying and good grounds to hae the 'box off and apart to see what is going on. I agree it is not a good idea to drive until you know the full details of the problem.

Good luck with it and please let us know the outcome.

Chris56000
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Post by Chris56000 » 07 Jun 2010, 14:14

Hi!

The Dealer's now got back to me - he was most apologetic and they're discussing how best to go from here and'll get back to me tomorrow!

A couple more PS's:-

1) Anybody know if there's an official Pugshot 406 workshop Manual published (not Haynes) - I got one of those on CD but vast chunks are missing, e.g., nothing on cruise control (mine has it!) electrics, lights, airbags, instruments, wiring diagrams, etc., etc., the cd only seems to be endless dead links and the drawings are hopeless!

2) Anybody ever got their hands on one of those SEEM C Tronic TB tension measuring thingys or know of an available equivalent and conversion table from SEEM-units?

Chris Williams

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Post by CitroJim » 07 Jun 2010, 20:14

Sometimes you can pick up the genuine Peugeot Workshop manuals Chris but they command a good price and take up a fair amount of shelf space. I have a set of Xantia manuals and they run to seven large A4 ring binders. I have four 406 volumes (my son runs a 406) but that's very incomplete.

It may be worth looking for a Revue Technique (the French take on Haynes). They are actually very good but it does help to be able to read French....

I have A SEEM gauge and consider them vital for any cambelt with a manual tensioner. The HDi is one such engine.

They occasionally come up on eBay although you'll always find bidding keen and they usually go for a good price.

Here's a SEEM conversion chart that converts between Newtons and a range of popular gauges, including the two PSA gauges.

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Post by Chris56000 » 08 Jun 2010, 12:56

Hi!

These are the 406 Manuals I've been able to get so far:-

1) Variable Power Steering, Electronically controlled Suspension Checks and Repair Manual;

2) Steering, Suspension and Power Steering Manual 95-97;

3) Dash Panel Multiplexing Presentation Manual;

4) Radio, CD and Electric Seats Diagnosis Manual;

5) Autoliv Airbags/Seatbelt EC4/EC5 99 Manual;

6) Brake System Factory Manual;

7) Bosch 5th Generation ABS Factory Manual '95;

8) Bosch 5.3 ABS Additional Fault Finding Manual;

9) DW10ATED Engine Repair Manual;

10) DW10ATED Electrical Wiring Diagrams Supplement '98;

11) Wiring Diagrams Manual Complete '97;

12) ML5T Clutch/Transmission Repair Manual '99;

13) Electrical Symbols Key Manual.

This pile covers most of it I think but I haven't got anything for Bodywork, Interior, Dashboard and Lighting, can anyone who has access to any 406 Peugeot Genuine Manuals enlighten me as to what remains to get (with any Reference Numbers if available!) please?

I also have my own PP2000 tackle (v22.14!!!) as well!!!

Chris Williams
Last edited by Chris56000 on 08 Jun 2010, 14:36, edited 1 time in total.

Chris56000
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Post by Chris56000 » 08 Jun 2010, 14:00

Hi!

Further to the above woes I've managed to find a s/h gearbox for £90 delivered which the local repairer's willing 2 fit for me (no warranty tho!) but in the light of comments made here I really ***would be very unlucky*** to find another one dud as well!!!

I've spoken to the dealer again who says their Workshop fixes a lot of Pugshot 406 taxis and he's hardly ever had gearbox trouble on any of 'em either!

So when the garage get the unit I'll get 'em to fit a good quality new clutch and drain/refill the replacement g/b with fresh oil and see how we go from there!!!

Myself and the dealer are of the opinion it isn't worth paying £250-£300 for just an inspection & then the warranty insurer says "Wear & Tear - hard luck!"

Opinions?

Chris Williams

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Post by Citroenmad » 08 Jun 2010, 14:40

Do 406 HDis have a Dual Mass Flywheel?

If so make sure the one you put back is a good one ...

If not then that will be far less hassle in the long run.

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Post by Chris56000 » 08 Jun 2010, 17:06

Hi!

To be honest I'm not sure!

The Book of Fairy Tales says it does but the Gearbox Specialist says they don't, and ferreting about on Brakes International's Website reveals you can get a Clutch and Conventional Flywheel conversion!

The only history I got was stamps in the book up to an (estimated!) 36,000, then they peter out and the only other invoice was for headlight bulbs! Does make me wonder tho - if it's had any attention at all between 36k & 96k when I got it - I was assured it had!!!

Chris Williams

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Post by Citroenmad » 09 Jun 2010, 10:39

Hmm, well Xantia 110HDis dont have a dueal mass flywheel, but all C5 HDis do. With the mileage at 96K miles, if its original id be thinking about having that looked at while its out ... if it had one.

Yes you can fit a solid flywheel to 90/110 HDis without problems, our C5 SX has had one for more miles than its original DMF lasted and its fine.

In that case you best get the cambelt and water pump doneat the same time then, as its 100K on HDis. Mine is on 73K miles and im thinking about getting it done, dont fancy leaving it to 100K.

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Post by CitroJim » 09 Jun 2010, 19:06

Chris56000 wrote: Opinions?
Yep, as said, you'd be very unlucky to find another badly duff one Chris. As I say, the only known issue is weak 3rd synchro and that's not common. I have one here from an Activa with just that problem. No good fro a diesel sadly as it's tailored for a petrol.

Let us know how it goes...

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Post by Gammy leg » 09 Jun 2010, 22:10

Hi,

My ML5T box had the same issues with 1st & 2nd although they came on over a period of months/years rather than instantly as yours did. The cause was a knackered syncro hub ( which I still have in the garage ).
The box was reconditioned for a shade over £600 plus extraction & refitting costs so £90 for a 2nd hand box seems to be an economic solution. Just make sure that the ratios in the replacement box are the same as the one that you have taken out.

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=23165

Gammy