hi guys
i not long had a 306 l reg 1.4 the car packed up 2 miles outside the car auction from were i got it with a blown cylinder head gasket Ive now replaced the head gasket after having it skimmed now i cant remember the right orientation of the firing order on the coil pack i know it,s 1 3 4 2 but which pole is which? i mean were does no1 lead go and so on. the car starts and runs but its not running right its like its hunting also it was doing this before i started the job I'm thinking of doing a compression test on it i hope there,s no more problems like rings or anything like that
thanks in advance
pugpete.........................
306 cylinder head and coil pack problem
Moderator: RichardW
no 1 cylinder at flywheel.
If you are lucky the dizzi lid HT cables have not been fiddled with and will still be fitted in correct order.
The 100% failsafe method :
1) remove sparkplugs
2) remove upper cambelt cover to access cam sprocket retaining nut
3) select neutral, handbrakes on, ignition key removed
4) using a ratchet an appropriate socket turn the cam towards you (following the wheels rotation as if the car moves forwards), while you hold your thumb over cylinder 1 plug hole.
5) once you feel cylinder 1 building up pressure, put a long screwdriver down the plughole and observe when the screwdriver (and hence cyl 1 piston) is at top.
6) check that the rotor points to cylinder 1 HT cable on the dizzi lid
7) check the remaining HT cables are in correct sequence on the dizzi lid
PS : standard comp test gauges for DIY are quite cheap. Should be possible to source for a tenner.
PPS : before dealing with comp issues, check the valve clearances.
With the cam lobe pointing up check clearance on affected valve.
From cylinder 1 you have : exhaust-inlet-inlet-exhaust-exhaust-inlet-inlet-exhaust
Exhaust clearance 0.40 +/- 0.05mm
Inlet clearance 0.20 +/- 0.05mm
allow for some additional tolerance (+/- 0.02mm) due to method, experience, and tooling quality.
If you are lucky the dizzi lid HT cables have not been fiddled with and will still be fitted in correct order.
The 100% failsafe method :
1) remove sparkplugs
2) remove upper cambelt cover to access cam sprocket retaining nut
3) select neutral, handbrakes on, ignition key removed
4) using a ratchet an appropriate socket turn the cam towards you (following the wheels rotation as if the car moves forwards), while you hold your thumb over cylinder 1 plug hole.
5) once you feel cylinder 1 building up pressure, put a long screwdriver down the plughole and observe when the screwdriver (and hence cyl 1 piston) is at top.
6) check that the rotor points to cylinder 1 HT cable on the dizzi lid
7) check the remaining HT cables are in correct sequence on the dizzi lid
PS : standard comp test gauges for DIY are quite cheap. Should be possible to source for a tenner.
PPS : before dealing with comp issues, check the valve clearances.
With the cam lobe pointing up check clearance on affected valve.
From cylinder 1 you have : exhaust-inlet-inlet-exhaust-exhaust-inlet-inlet-exhaust
Exhaust clearance 0.40 +/- 0.05mm
Inlet clearance 0.20 +/- 0.05mm
allow for some additional tolerance (+/- 0.02mm) due to method, experience, and tooling quality.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
All right - all right
You got a coil pack - not a dizzi lid -
I know - I know - I'm getting old
Still, the method can be applied if slightly modified
Have ignition on then observe that a spark comes from both cyl 1 & cyl 4 HT cables (insert plugs on cables and lay pn erthed engine/chassis parts).
Cyl 4 will produce a wasted spark at top exhaust position together with cyl 1 at TDC compression.
Shortest cable then goes to cyl 1 etc.
You got a coil pack - not a dizzi lid -
I know - I know - I'm getting old
Still, the method can be applied if slightly modified
Have ignition on then observe that a spark comes from both cyl 1 & cyl 4 HT cables (insert plugs on cables and lay pn erthed engine/chassis parts).
Cyl 4 will produce a wasted spark at top exhaust position together with cyl 1 at TDC compression.
Shortest cable then goes to cyl 1 etc.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Hi Anders
Ty for the info it was very help full now i find i have more problems there is water coming out from the front of the engine and its an aluminum block seems like its coming from above the oil switch and there seems to be a rubber bung or something there, also there was a jet of water coming out from the radiator with the cap off with the engine cold. the engine starts up ok it revs up like mad but after about 5 mins it starts to falter then die off and stop and there is a bubbling sound coming from the radiator after it stops like its boiling over. There is one other thing puzzling me when i took it all apart there is a silver pipe with a green plastic insert which goes into the bottom of the air intake housing with a jubilee clip on the other end and i cant see were it goes on the engine.
i think maybe the car will need another engine or maybe you can tell me something more about this problem i am also thinking someone before me maybe forgot to put antifreeze in last winter.
many thanks in advance
pete......................................
Ty for the info it was very help full now i find i have more problems there is water coming out from the front of the engine and its an aluminum block seems like its coming from above the oil switch and there seems to be a rubber bung or something there, also there was a jet of water coming out from the radiator with the cap off with the engine cold. the engine starts up ok it revs up like mad but after about 5 mins it starts to falter then die off and stop and there is a bubbling sound coming from the radiator after it stops like its boiling over. There is one other thing puzzling me when i took it all apart there is a silver pipe with a green plastic insert which goes into the bottom of the air intake housing with a jubilee clip on the other end and i cant see were it goes on the engine.
i think maybe the car will need another engine or maybe you can tell me something more about this problem i am also thinking someone before me maybe forgot to put antifreeze in last winter.
many thanks in advance
pete......................................
Ok Pete -
Leaking rubber fittings are of no real concern, and neither is the radiator. These parts are usually cheap and easy to fix. If the engine has been exposed to frost, then most likely some welsh plugs has been pushed out giving serious external coolant leaks. Because of this its very rare (if ever) to see internal engine damages from frost.
The waterpump is driven directly off the cambelt, so will always work as long the engine runs. They will never suddenly stop pumping the coolant. Only very old/himilers may have detoriated pump impeller.
If the radiator is leaking from one of its cross tubes, then squeese that tube flat exactly over the leak to close the leak. A molegrip is usually perfect for this.
Before giving up the engine, there are a few important checks to do :
1) check the thermostat is fitted correctly, or has not left itself in closed position (defective).
2) remove radiator and flush it, both forward and backward flushing several times. Test it for thru flow.
3) check all coolant hoses, escpecially for kinks
4) when refilling the cooling system, it is imperative that the system is vented before allowing the engine to get hot. XU engines takes at least 5Liters (even more) of coolant, so check that this amount is not hold down by air traps.
5) IMPORTANT. insert lockpins in cam sprocket and flywheel (use an L shaped piece of 8mm threadbar under the starter motor thru flange into flywheel) to check engine timing. A retarded timing WILL cause hot running weak engine.
6) testrun the engine again, with no thermostat fitted
I presume the oil & filter are replaced and oil topped up ?
Leaking rubber fittings are of no real concern, and neither is the radiator. These parts are usually cheap and easy to fix. If the engine has been exposed to frost, then most likely some welsh plugs has been pushed out giving serious external coolant leaks. Because of this its very rare (if ever) to see internal engine damages from frost.
The waterpump is driven directly off the cambelt, so will always work as long the engine runs. They will never suddenly stop pumping the coolant. Only very old/himilers may have detoriated pump impeller.
If the radiator is leaking from one of its cross tubes, then squeese that tube flat exactly over the leak to close the leak. A molegrip is usually perfect for this.
Before giving up the engine, there are a few important checks to do :
1) check the thermostat is fitted correctly, or has not left itself in closed position (defective).
2) remove radiator and flush it, both forward and backward flushing several times. Test it for thru flow.
3) check all coolant hoses, escpecially for kinks
4) when refilling the cooling system, it is imperative that the system is vented before allowing the engine to get hot. XU engines takes at least 5Liters (even more) of coolant, so check that this amount is not hold down by air traps.
5) IMPORTANT. insert lockpins in cam sprocket and flywheel (use an L shaped piece of 8mm threadbar under the starter motor thru flange into flywheel) to check engine timing. A retarded timing WILL cause hot running weak engine.
6) testrun the engine again, with no thermostat fitted
I presume the oil & filter are replaced and oil topped up ?
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
-
CitroJim
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Unfortunately, in the case of an alloy block XU, frost damage can cause cracks in the block. It killed my original 205GTi engine. A shame as the engine was basically good but after "?" hose blew (the one between the thermostat and SAD housing) the previous owner never put antifreeze in. Not only did that cause the block to crack one frosty day but it also wrecked the head due to corrosion 
EDIT: Sorry, this is a TU engine but I think the same still applies. They don't (certainly the alloy XU) have any core (Welch) plugs and thus nothing to "give" in frost. They do in the head though.
From what you say Pete, it does not sound like a crack. The rad is obviously finished.
The running problem sounds like air leaks to me around the inlet manifold.
The pipe you refer to is most likely the crankcase breather hose.
Can you post a picture of this hose and where the leak is. That'll help us enormously
EDIT: Sorry, this is a TU engine but I think the same still applies. They don't (certainly the alloy XU) have any core (Welch) plugs and thus nothing to "give" in frost. They do in the head though.
From what you say Pete, it does not sound like a crack. The rad is obviously finished.
The running problem sounds like air leaks to me around the inlet manifold.
The pipe you refer to is most likely the crankcase breather hose.
Can you post a picture of this hose and where the leak is. That'll help us enormously
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Hi guys thanks for your replys
The water is actully running down the front of the engine and running round the oil filter the leak is above the airfilter and below the cylinder head and it runs out quite fast with the engine running and there is a kind of rubber bung or could be were someone has tried to fill the hole with some repair paste or something tha radiator itself is not leaking but as u said it could do with a flush out including the engine itself i will try and get some pics posted here to show you the pipe im talking about comes from the bottom of the black plastic air intake housing in between where the air filter is and the single point injection cover
thanks in advance guys
pete......................................
The water is actully running down the front of the engine and running round the oil filter the leak is above the airfilter and below the cylinder head and it runs out quite fast with the engine running and there is a kind of rubber bung or could be were someone has tried to fill the hole with some repair paste or something tha radiator itself is not leaking but as u said it could do with a flush out including the engine itself i will try and get some pics posted here to show you the pipe im talking about comes from the bottom of the black plastic air intake housing in between where the air filter is and the single point injection cover
thanks in advance guys
pete......................................
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
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Pete,
Forgive me but I'm not too familiar with the TU engine but as it is alloy and wet liners, it is going to be very similar in principle to the alloy XU.
Now, going on XU experience, I know it is possible to break into a block waterway if you don't use the right spacers in the right places on the head studs and I'm wondering if a head stud has pierced a waterway and is causing the leak.
Also, on the front of the block there is a stud hole which may have had a too long bolt screwed in at some point and pierced a waterway.
The good news is that all of these problems (on XU blocks at least, but I see no reason why it'll not work on a TU) can be successfully repaired using "Chemical Metal" or a similar epoxy compound. There is not a lot of pressure in the waterways.
Are you sure the origin of the leak is not from the block/head gasket join? I see you have had the head skimmed but if there is block deck face damage or the deck is warped, this could cause it. Water is terrible for leaking from one point and appearing to be leaking from somewhere else entirely.
Keep us updated Pete..
Forgive me but I'm not too familiar with the TU engine but as it is alloy and wet liners, it is going to be very similar in principle to the alloy XU.
Now, going on XU experience, I know it is possible to break into a block waterway if you don't use the right spacers in the right places on the head studs and I'm wondering if a head stud has pierced a waterway and is causing the leak.
Also, on the front of the block there is a stud hole which may have had a too long bolt screwed in at some point and pierced a waterway.
The good news is that all of these problems (on XU blocks at least, but I see no reason why it'll not work on a TU) can be successfully repaired using "Chemical Metal" or a similar epoxy compound. There is not a lot of pressure in the waterways.
Are you sure the origin of the leak is not from the block/head gasket join? I see you have had the head skimmed but if there is block deck face damage or the deck is warped, this could cause it. Water is terrible for leaking from one point and appearing to be leaking from somewhere else entirely.
Keep us updated Pete..
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
hi Jim
Thanks for your reply yes i will certainly keep you updated on this ill clean off the front of the engine and try to see where the leak is Ive heard of chemical metal before and heard its good stuff this leak was there before i started the head gasket but that was oil coming out from the joint between the head and the block now Ive cured that but I'm sure this leak is coming from the front but as u said water can be very deceptive.
Pete........................
Thanks for your reply yes i will certainly keep you updated on this ill clean off the front of the engine and try to see where the leak is Ive heard of chemical metal before and heard its good stuff this leak was there before i started the head gasket but that was oil coming out from the joint between the head and the block now Ive cured that but I'm sure this leak is coming from the front but as u said water can be very deceptive.
Pete........................