405 rough/non running IT LIVES AGAIN

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OwenP
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405 rough/non running IT LIVES AGAIN (I think)

Post by OwenP »

Right, yet again I am having problems with my 405 (P reg 1.9TD Estate).

Drove 60 odd miles this morning no problems at all.

Went to start the car up this evening to come home and it seemed a bit hesitant so gave it a little bit of throttle only to find very few revs coming back. Let it back to idle and then tried to go up the revs and they stuck at about 3000rpm and stalled on falling back to idle.

Tried it again and could rev to about 2500rpm and back down but try and get over 3000rpm and it wouldn't go and then cough and splutter or cut out. Also got lot of white smoke from the exhaust when I tried moving the car

Got a tow home from the AA, tried to start it to move it over on the drive slightly and couldn't even get it to stay running, it just coughed and spluttered at which point I turned it off.

There is plenty of fuel in the car and there is fuel being pulled through the system, oil and water both look find with no leaks (other than a small oil leak from the rocker cover gasket, possibly breather pipes as a new gasket hasn't totally fixed it.)

There appears to be a slight oil sheen on the front of the intercooler, so I'm wondering if that has split slightly? Possibly a problem on the turbo system given the rev ranges and responses?

Any other ideas on what could be wrong?

Cheers
Last edited by OwenP on 06 Mar 2007, 18:33, edited 2 times in total.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
Brian UK
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Post by Brian UK »

White smoke from a diesel is usually unburnt fuel. This is normally caused by retarded injection timing.
What state is the timing belt in, is it tight, as a loose belt will slip, and cause just your problems.
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

It should be OK as was replaced only about 15000 miles ago but will check in the morning or on Tuesday when a mate of mine with a bit more mechanical knowledge is about. Although I did have a new water pump fitted about 3000 miles ago so that may be a bit off, although I'd have expected it to go earlier.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Hmmm... Was running perfect in the morning. But no good after standstill several hours, when you wanted to drive home.

To me that sounds like a split fuel line somewhere causing air to get into the fuel system.
Old story : always look for simple things first ...

Of course there is a slight chance the cambelt jumped a tooth or 2 when you first cranked the engine to go home ...
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=21230
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

I'm think split line of some sort as well, especially as it got worse every time the engine was turned over. I know that up to the filter the fuel line is fine as I have a clear bulb in the line but will check the filter and beyond when the everything thaws out later on.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

Right just had a look at the car in the daylight, I don't think there is a split in the fuel lines, there is no evidence that I can see of cracks or splits and the primer bulb is harder after 2-3 pumps.

Its a Lucas pump and the filter is about 3000 miles old along with a new housing retainer bolt and housing o-ring. Also had new leak off pipes at the same sort of time.

It turned over this morning but was very spluttery and on revving would almost struggle and then nearly stall again.

On looking in daylight the smoke may have a slight bluish tinge to it, hard to tell as it wasn't smoking much this morning, but it doesn't seem to be using any oil, last change was ~4000 miles ago.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
caveman_si
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Post by caveman_si »

Sounds similar to something that happend this time last year to my 405.

Have you filled up recently? Not to imply that its running empty but I had very similar symptoms last year from a bad tank of fuel. The diesel was a terrible, full of crap/wax and blocked my fuel filter after about 60 miles of motorway driving. It went down on power then when i easied off the revs would allow the power to return again and then disappear. Car ended up turning itself off on the M6 hard shoulder in rush hour. Managed to coast to lancaster and pick up a new fuel filter £9 in halfords the robbing illegitamate child of non married parrents. Fitted it in the car park and the car was like a new beast so much so I made it to the Bridge of Orchy in scotland in less then 3hrs
406 lx 1.9td estate
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Air or - as implied by caveman - any other foreign matter would still give the symptoms described. The bluish tint on the smoke indicates unburnt diesel fuel, which would also tell by the smell.

If petrol (gasoline) was mixed up with diesel, you would have ignitions in the exhaust.
If too much paraffin is mixed up (to keep diesel from waxing) then the fuel will have much different ignition characteristics. I.e. it will require a hot engine - or very hot glowplugs constantly - to ignite properly.
Paraffin has a distinct different smell from derv diesel. You will remember from old style paraffin lamps.

Water in the diesel fuel would in some cases do as pr your description. It depends on how much water has entered the fuel system. Severe cases of water will prevent starting at all. But small amounts can do as you have it now.
I would try drain the filter bowl. Even try drain some fuel from the tank for investigation.
Carefull : diesel fuel can in fact ignite by sparks !

I dont think its a timing issue, as then it would be a more consistent missbehaving - not the spluttering and random ignition you describe.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

I'm too young to remember parafin lamps (only 22.)

It is a new tank of fuel only done about 80 miles on it 16 round town and the rest on the journey out yesterday. Fuel came from Tescos and they are not exactly the best for not f*****g up their fueling arrangements however a friend who works at the store hasn't heard anything. Will go and have the filter off and see how it looks.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

OK the filter looked very black at the bottom, so I tried putting the old filter back in, and the car runs, its still a bit rough, but it revs properly more or less still splutters on let down but not as much and actually has enough power to be driven.
The diesel smells a bit odd although not massively so, but I'm not sure what I'm smelling mixed in with it. There is no water in evidence although haven't had the filter housing off to check underneath as the last time I managed to snap the bolt in half refitting it.

However now the car won't turn off, the key will start it but thats all I had to use the fuel pump kill switch to turn the engine off. Its not racing away it just stay at idle, didn't want to try the throttle though as I can't afford the engine to go bang.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Does this late P-reg 405 have the immobiliser fitted on the diesel pump ?
If not you may try remove the fuel cut off solonoid for investigation.
Either its given up the ghost or its gunked up with the same black dirt you found in the filter.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
OwenP
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Post by OwenP »

Its got the immobiliser fitted, but the system was disconnected when I bought the car and I've not had the money to get it sorted yet.
2001 406 Rapier 2.0 HDi 90 Estate - Sold Scrap after being viciously attacked by a falling tree
2001 Toyota MR2 1.8 VVTi - To be sold for spares/repair - dead gearbox :(
2014 Seat Ibiza Eastate 1.4 FR ACT (bought in an emergency, but a nice enough low mileage car)
philhoward

Post by philhoward »

From what you said about the filter, i'd say you've either filled up with a tank full or shyte or there's one of the feed hoses breaking up and depositing lots of rubber in there. You could try one of those clear plastic filters just before the normal filter (about £2 from your local motor factors, plus a few quid for a new bit of hose) to see if anything ends up in there. It won't be as good as a diesel filter, so don't bypass it!
504

Post by 504 »

What makes were the old and new fuel filters? I find the original Lucas/CAV/Delphi ones give noticable engine responce in the 504. I still head to the Peugeot dealer for new ones.

If you look at the Halfords/Fram etc they have a solid metal top and fuel runs down the side. The original spec have perforation holes all across the top clearly allowing more fuel through the filter.
philhoward

Post by philhoward »

I was going to add a thing about those fake Hengst filters which were mentioned on here (might have been the Citroen forum) not to long ago, but thought better of it....perhaps it might not be a genuine one (whether or not this was known to the seller - I gather that a well known supplier of parts was even caught out).
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