Help! Junior is driving me up the wall..

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CitroJim
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Help! Junior is driving me up the wall..

Post by CitroJim »

I am going spare :evil:

Our little 205 D Junior is really playing games with me.

The story so far: It is hard to start after it has stood overnight and often even when it's cold during the day. I have battled her now for a couple of weeks and have not yet found the root cause. It just won't start as all other XUDs I've owned do. I'm used to them starting more or less instantly whatever the weather and however long they have stood.

Junior will churn and churn and then all of a sudden, burst into life faultlessly, no rough running, just a perfect tickover. She only plays this game when she has been standing a while and when it's cold or cool. At all other times she fires up instantly. All through the summer she was always faultless.

"Easy!" I hear you all say. Glowplugs or if not that then air leaks. If only :cry:

I have already done the following:

New BERU glowplus (of the correct type, GV636), a new BERU glowplug controller. Checked that a healthy voltage is reaching the glowplugs.

Checked and checked for air leaks, even tried a clear run of hose from the filter head to the pump. I saw some bubbles caused by the fake filter but after filter replacement not a bubble to be seen at any time, no real improvement. Pumping the priming bulb with the ignition on makes no difference anyway. I have checked the leakoff pipes and fuel return lines even though it's a Lucas pump and problems here don't cause this sort of trouble as they do in a Bosch system..

Ran it with the stop solenoid plunger removed in case it was "lazy". No real improvement.

The pump was weeping a little diesel from around the throttle shaft so I replaced the O rings. It is as dry as a bone now.

Checked the waxstat and anti-stall settings. Adjusted to book and both working fine.

There have been small improvements but all the little things I found have all been red herrings and not really cured the problem.

When it starts it runs like a clock, not an apparant problem at all. It never falters, coughs or smokes, ever.

On the last point, it seems to go well but I cannot help thinking something is not quite right. Just a feeling. There are two things that bothers me slightly.

The first is that however hard I try, even in "Italian Tuneup" mode, I just cannot provoke any black smoke out of it whatsoever. It almost suggests it is underfuelling slightly.

The second is related I think. The throttle lever on the pump has a lot of "lost motion" in that the speed of the engine does not increase over the first third of the travel of the lever. After this lost third, it pickus up but there is a very short lumpy phase between idle and starting to rev. It then revs fine until it hits the max speed stop. Out on the road it will rev well enough to see 70 in third before it looses power significantly as the governor pulls it back.

The pump "lost motion" was evident before I put the new O rings in so it's nothing I have done. (I think)

My next tasks are to check the injector timing (once I have made a suitable probe and DTI mounting) and check the valve clearances and valve timing in case the cambelt has slipped a tooth. I tend to rule out the latter as the root cause of the problem because once it starts it is fine and runs like a clock. I would have expected at least a few moments of rough running if it was valves and rough running all the time if the cam timing was out.

So, what have I missed? Is the pump worn out? Is the transfer pressure low, hence the "lost motion" on the throttle lever? Is there an injector problem? But surely not all four at the same time? Why no black smoke, ever?

Would a leak-down test be a good idea if all else fails?

Any help would be most appreciated. If I don't soon get to the bottom of this, I will be needing help; of the variety provided by men in white coats :wink:
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
504

Post by 504 »

I doubt the pump timing is out, if it were you'd either be churning out huge amounts of white smoke, or hearing the engine knocking.

Do a compression test on each cylinder, done by removing the glow plug and screwing in the tester. I can only think lack of compression is the cause if you have done the rest of your checks.
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XUD Cold starting.

Post by rotodiesel »

Before delving too deeply into this problem (although you've been in quite a way), check the engine valve clearances. Tight inlet valves will give low compression causing poor starting. As the alloy head expands relative to the steel valves (coolish because they're inlets) the clearances widen slightly, enabling a normal hot start. Worth a look.

rotodiesel.
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Post by alan s »

I'll come at it from a totally different angle.
I've only ever owned one diesel, so I'm the first to admit I'm no expert, but the diesel I owned was a Mazda E2200 and it started doing similar things.
Where I live doesn't get real cold, but on cooler mornings, I sometimes would have to hit the glow plug switch a couple of times after the auto heat up cycle or it would really battle to start. Once started, it was right for the rest of the day, then come summer, rarely had problems although first start of a morning was always a bit lack lustre (sound familiar)?
I eventually discovered the carbon brushes in the starter motor were on the way out. Once replaced, it started first time every time.
May be worthy of a bit of thought???


Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
philhoward

Post by philhoward »

If there's no plume of white smoke after all that churning, surely it can only be a case of "Fuel Off..lots of cranking..then..Fuel ON" rather than a gradual build up of fuel pressure until there's enough to fire. To me it's gotta be something linked to the stop solenoid (or at least idle circuit)

If it only does it on first cold start, then the next test might not work:

Start it, and whilst its still cold try the "igntiion off - igntion on" quick turn of the key - trying to catch it before it dies (starting this with a few revs on the dial might help!). This might help to see if its the base idle setting (i.e. zero throttle) or a generic fuel problem (lack of) is at fault depending on how it'll pick back up...or not depending on whether or not your foot is on the loud pedal.

Another trial...does it start quicker with a bit of throttle applied? I know its not ideal on a cold XUD, but it might help isolate the idle circuit (i.e. minmum fuel setting) because if it'll start straight away with a bit of throttle (and the glow plugs lit), then it's getting fuel from the start to the HP injection side.
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CitroJim
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Post by CitroJim »

a big thanks all for helping to restore my sanity :D

Shes really being a girl now and starting OK but of course the weather is not really that bitter at the moment :?

Alan, I must admit I'm not 100% sure of the starter. It's not what I would describe as enthusiastic about it's job and spins nowhere near as fast as the Xantia or the GTi. I know the battery is fine. I was always under the impression that cranking speed on a diesel was not really an issue; as long as it turns but then I read a havvy text that said that it is.

Phil, I've tried at all settings of the throttle with no real difference. The waxstat is working as when it starts it correctly fast idles.

Yesterday morning, although it started first time after 2 days standing it was not an instant start and took perhaps 5 seconds of starter. In that time I did spot white smoke.

So, that I reckon isolates it to the starter motor not spinning fast enough or valve clearances. If it ever stops raining I'll get out there and check the clearances. When is the next cold, sunny Saturday forecast? :lol:
Jim

Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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Post by AndersDK »

Jim -

Its been pouring down the last 3 weeks here in DK as well :roll:
The last couple of years I've solved my "outdoor garage" problem using one of those cheapy garden tents, no wall pieces. A simple square "umbrella" 3m by 3m, with a pillar each corner. Should be about £7-10 your place.
You can of course purchase wallpieces as luxury options too :D
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
alan s
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Post by alan s »

Rain? What's rain???? We rarely see it out here any more. :oops:

Just a thought on proving/disproving the starter motor theory. When I had my problems, I used to find that particularly on cold mornings when I knew it was going to be piggy to start, I used to connect a set of jumper leads to another car and the extra bit of power corrected the starting problem.
As I say, may be worth trying once or twice to see if it has any effect on things.


Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
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