Ok, I admit it, I want to run the dreaded Veggie oil scam! But, I have done days and days of research and know my cav pump will blow up!
So what I want to know is can I swap for a bosch pump?
I think the answer is yes with a large but! So I woudl be grateful if someone could tell me why I will also need new injectors pipes etc etc? Doesn;t seem to make sense!
Thanks.
Ad.
605 and the Lovely Lucas Cav
Moderator: RichardW
605 and the Lovely Lucas Cav
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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fastandfurryous
- Posts: 1388
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Re: 605 and the Lovely Lucas Cav
No, it will simply leak like a sieve. Probably. Some people seem to manage fine on lucas pumps.Adstar wrote: and know my cav pump will blow up!
The pumps are a physically different size, so you need injector lines that fit. The injectors have different strength pintle springs, and hence different opening pressures, so you need injectors that match the pump.why I will also need new injectors pipes etc etc? Doesn;t seem to make sense!
Make sense?
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Thanks, It does make sense. Although I am still more than a bit concerned aver the idea that the cav pump works.
My research would leave me to believe the problem is that this type of pump works ridiculously fast compared to the bosch pump. That in it's self poses problems with the viscosity.
Also, does the lucas pump not lubricate itself with the fuel oil? Another viscosity sensative thing?!
Again, this is something I am seaking advice on, so I am still forming some sort of opinion. I have read that the seals can be replaced, but I can't see how that solves the lubrication problems, and that the pump will have to work so much harder to pump the thicker fluid?
Ad.
My research would leave me to believe the problem is that this type of pump works ridiculously fast compared to the bosch pump. That in it's self poses problems with the viscosity.
Also, does the lucas pump not lubricate itself with the fuel oil? Another viscosity sensative thing?!
Again, this is something I am seaking advice on, so I am still forming some sort of opinion. I have read that the seals can be replaced, but I can't see how that solves the lubrication problems, and that the pump will have to work so much harder to pump the thicker fluid?
Ad.
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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fastandfurryous
- Posts: 1388
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- Location: On the road, travelling at high speed. Meep Meep.
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- x 4
What do you many by "fast"?... the injection duration is similar, and they rotate at the same speed...Adstar wrote:this type of pump works ridiculously fast compared to the bosch pump.
Lubricity is somewhat more relevant than viscosity here. The low-pressure transfer part of the pump would indeed be working harder, but considering the fact that the working surfaces are metal, it's not really a problem. The only effect there may be is to increase the load on the timing belt.Also, does the lucas pump not lubricate itself with the fuel oil? Another viscosity sensative thing?!
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I spent ages trying to find the web site that described the different workings of the pumps. Eventually I found one that explained some of it.
I believe that the following is true: The Bosch pump works in a back and forth motion, where both strokes are used to provide pressure. A by product of this is significantly less dirt accumulating.
For the cav pump it then goes on about a vane pump. If we assume that bosch works on piston pressure, and the cav works on cetrifugal pressure, that should be fair.
It also highlights worries about fibre material vanes rather than metal vanes! I am assuming this is model specific?
The main problem is that the cav pump has to work harder to produce the same pressure. The viscosity is important because of the added friction generates heat. The centrigufal forces main that dirt deposits are left behind (making it less efficient any way) and could be collected by the thicker substance.
So may be I have mis-interpreted the whole working faster, by reading another description. But this definately shows there are some real considerations with the cav pumps. Not least shearing the pump off the drive shaft?!
I can't see how new seals will help. I'm also dissapointed that I can't find the extract abotu the lubrication and viscosity. But there you go! It has been an interesting learnign experience,and I'm still sceptical about the veggie oil experiement and this pump!
I believe that the following is true: The Bosch pump works in a back and forth motion, where both strokes are used to provide pressure. A by product of this is significantly less dirt accumulating.
For the cav pump it then goes on about a vane pump. If we assume that bosch works on piston pressure, and the cav works on cetrifugal pressure, that should be fair.
It also highlights worries about fibre material vanes rather than metal vanes! I am assuming this is model specific?
The main problem is that the cav pump has to work harder to produce the same pressure. The viscosity is important because of the added friction generates heat. The centrigufal forces main that dirt deposits are left behind (making it less efficient any way) and could be collected by the thicker substance.
So may be I have mis-interpreted the whole working faster, by reading another description. But this definately shows there are some real considerations with the cav pumps. Not least shearing the pump off the drive shaft?!
I can't see how new seals will help. I'm also dissapointed that I can't find the extract abotu the lubrication and viscosity. But there you go! It has been an interesting learnign experience,and I'm still sceptical about the veggie oil experiement and this pump!
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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fastandfurryous
- Posts: 1388
- Joined: 07 Jul 2004, 17:57
- Location: On the road, travelling at high speed. Meep Meep.
- My Cars:
- x 4
The vane pump you refer to is the low pressure transfer part of the injection pump.
Both pumps generate high pressure with a cam ring and followers. On the bosch, the cam aspect moves the followers in a linear reciprocal motion, on the Lucas/CAV, the followers are on the inside of the cam ring, and rotate. (difficult to explain without diagrams)
Neither pump uses more power, as if this were true, then different pumped engines would have different gross power output figures.
The seals problem is the main reason that the Bosch pump is preferred, but with a change of seals, there is no reason why a lucas pump should be any less reliable, or prone to damage than a Bosch one.
Both pumps generate high pressure with a cam ring and followers. On the bosch, the cam aspect moves the followers in a linear reciprocal motion, on the Lucas/CAV, the followers are on the inside of the cam ring, and rotate. (difficult to explain without diagrams)
Neither pump uses more power, as if this were true, then different pumped engines would have different gross power output figures.
The seals problem is the main reason that the Bosch pump is preferred, but with a change of seals, there is no reason why a lucas pump should be any less reliable, or prone to damage than a Bosch one.
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Now I am intrigued! I appreciate what sounds like some very knowledgable information. I am a bit more cinfident about starting the experiement. I will try and find some pictures from somewhere that knows. It would seem that a lot of the 'veggie oil' sites have a tainted and innaccurate view of the way these things work.
I know I have to be careful with the mixture because I commute only a VERY short distance (to lazy to walk!) but on the longer journeys it could be benificial.
I have one last query about the pump. If the viscosity doesn't cause any dramatic pressure increases, and the substance isn't corrosive, why should the seals give way or need replacing?
I am assuming it is a relatively easy and cheap job? I'm getting the cam belt done in a few weeks, so could get it done at the same time if required.
Thanks again. I hope other people benifit from this, not just me!
I know I have to be careful with the mixture because I commute only a VERY short distance (to lazy to walk!) but on the longer journeys it could be benificial.
I have one last query about the pump. If the viscosity doesn't cause any dramatic pressure increases, and the substance isn't corrosive, why should the seals give way or need replacing?
I am assuming it is a relatively easy and cheap job? I'm getting the cam belt done in a few weeks, so could get it done at the same time if required.
Thanks again. I hope other people benifit from this, not just me!
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
incase anyone is interested. I bit the bullet, and chucked in 3 liters of exceptionally cheap and very runny cooking oil! 400 miles later the car is fine!
So I shall increase the mix on the next "long" journey. (2.5% is not too great!)
So I shall increase the mix on the next "long" journey. (2.5% is not too great!)
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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martyhopkirk
If its any use I ran a 125K mile ZX on a 50/50 mix for about 30,000 miles with no other ill effects other than a very persistant chippery shop smell - this had a CAV pump.
I also ran a 1.5 AX with a CAV pump on (at times) damn near 100% veg oil and whilst sluggish on acceleration it ran a treat (but also stank) - I ran it like this for 10000 miles.
I also ran a 1.5 AX with a CAV pump on (at times) damn near 100% veg oil and whilst sluggish on acceleration it ran a treat (but also stank) - I ran it like this for 10000 miles.
For anyone still interested, I am now running a little more than 12.5% mix of Costco's cheapest cooking oil. Available for under a tenner in 20 liter barrels. I have a bit more than 10 liters on top of an already weak mix +another 15l or so diesel to fill the tank.
So far I have not found any downside. Engine pulls like a train. Starts ok even in these colder conditions. Economy is fine.
I have bought my second barrel so I am committed to further research.
I must be up to nearly 1000 miles with varying strength mixes.
So far I have not found any downside. Engine pulls like a train. Starts ok even in these colder conditions. Economy is fine.
I have bought my second barrel so I am committed to further research.
I must be up to nearly 1000 miles with varying strength mixes.
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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fastandfurryous
- Posts: 1388
- Joined: 07 Jul 2004, 17:57
- Location: On the road, travelling at high speed. Meep Meep.
- My Cars:
- x 4
I know. But one suspects that as the duty is paid retrospectively, I would be able to get out of trouble.
I did look at the forms and such, and have heard various rumours about the difficulty in filling them out or getting a response.
But to be honest, if there was a sniff of getting nicked or actually having to pay duty, Id not bother with the experiment. I'm not running a stiff enough mix, or getting the oil cheap enough, to save enough money with the costs of duty.
I did look at the forms and such, and have heard various rumours about the difficulty in filling them out or getting a response.
But to be honest, if there was a sniff of getting nicked or actually having to pay duty, Id not bother with the experiment. I'm not running a stiff enough mix, or getting the oil cheap enough, to save enough money with the costs of duty.
605 Only an SL but it is a DT with a shake rattle and role!
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
Mk 1 MR2 waiting to have the final useful bits removed... RIP.
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fastandfurryous
- Posts: 1388
- Joined: 07 Jul 2004, 17:57
- Location: On the road, travelling at high speed. Meep Meep.
- My Cars:
- x 4
Whilst the duty is *paid* retrospectively, you do have to be registered before using it, or even putting it anywhere near your tank. Whilst reports of drivers being arrested at the roadside are grossly exaggerated, Customs and Excise have impounded cars, and imposed hefty fines.
And consider this: would you run on red diesel? No? Vegetable oil is even worse, as you haven't even paid VAT on it (vegetable based oils, as foodstufs are VAT-Exempt)
My concern is that there is a growing industry based around renewable oil technology, and they are trying to be legitimate. The more people who unlawfully run on SVO, the worse the image of the industry, and the less likely it is to progress, as it will become politically unsavory, and no-one will represent this struggling industry.
www.bio-power.co.uk
And consider this: would you run on red diesel? No? Vegetable oil is even worse, as you haven't even paid VAT on it (vegetable based oils, as foodstufs are VAT-Exempt)
My concern is that there is a growing industry based around renewable oil technology, and they are trying to be legitimate. The more people who unlawfully run on SVO, the worse the image of the industry, and the less likely it is to progress, as it will become politically unsavory, and no-one will represent this struggling industry.
www.bio-power.co.uk
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