No, don't laugh, just to demonstrate that <b>anything</b> is possible, have a look at this- just scroll down to the engine spec-talk about butchery!!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... eName=WDVW
3rd car - Xantia, XM, BX, CX, DS, SM, or 280SE?
Moderator: RichardW
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Thunderbird
I don't think that's stupid:
The HDi is more compact, much more silent and refined and has much better torgue. After modifications, the power is identical, but the performances with the HDi are better. In terms of reliability, can't be compared.
I've read some articles about the SM. It seems that some people that drive in a every-day basis, going through long distances, has deeply modified the engine or replaced it by a much better one.
In fact, stupidity is not to modify the engine or replace it because the original engine is extremely unreliable. And today diesel engines are much superior to petrol ones. Why to replace it with an inferior petrol engine?
Georges Regembeau (the man who designed the first 5-speed gearbox for the DS and also recommends deep re-engineering the SM engine or, even better and not much expensive, replace it) re-designed the 4 cylinder, 6 speed diesel engine initially built for the SM and fitted in the SM. His personal car, equipped with the Diesel engine had done 526.000 km (328.000 miles) in 1990!
The HDi is more compact, much more silent and refined and has much better torgue. After modifications, the power is identical, but the performances with the HDi are better. In terms of reliability, can't be compared.
I've read some articles about the SM. It seems that some people that drive in a every-day basis, going through long distances, has deeply modified the engine or replaced it by a much better one.
In fact, stupidity is not to modify the engine or replace it because the original engine is extremely unreliable. And today diesel engines are much superior to petrol ones. Why to replace it with an inferior petrol engine?
Georges Regembeau (the man who designed the first 5-speed gearbox for the DS and also recommends deep re-engineering the SM engine or, even better and not much expensive, replace it) re-designed the 4 cylinder, 6 speed diesel engine initially built for the SM and fitted in the SM. His personal car, equipped with the Diesel engine had done 526.000 km (328.000 miles) in 1990!
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tomsheppard
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Once upon a time Triumph Stag owners threw out the under-developed and troublesome (in an overheating sort of way)Triumph V8 and put in either -the Ford V6 or the engine it arguably should have had, the Rover V8.
Now , however, everyone wants the original Triumph V8 back for the sake of originality, and they are now very hard to find.The converted cars, although arguably better, are not considered quite pukka and posess nowhere near the same kudos or value.
Now , however, everyone wants the original Triumph V8 back for the sake of originality, and they are now very hard to find.The converted cars, although arguably better, are not considered quite pukka and posess nowhere near the same kudos or value.
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Thunderbird
bxbodger,
Exactly! If you are a collector, all parts must be original or replicas. However, if you want to drive 100 miles every day on the SM (365 days per year), you better forget about original mechanics...
Still, from reading classics books, I conclude the value of an SM is not spectacular. Maybe they made too many. Maybe it didn't inovate much after the DS. Maybe its mechanics is dull - an unloved and compromised child of Maserati. Maybe it's not a Ferrari, a Bentley or a Maserati...
There may be many reasons, but the fact is SM is not highly considered amonst classics.
It is better seen by those who want to replace the engine and drive it every day (they're willing to pay more).
Exactly! If you are a collector, all parts must be original or replicas. However, if you want to drive 100 miles every day on the SM (365 days per year), you better forget about original mechanics...
Still, from reading classics books, I conclude the value of an SM is not spectacular. Maybe they made too many. Maybe it didn't inovate much after the DS. Maybe its mechanics is dull - an unloved and compromised child of Maserati. Maybe it's not a Ferrari, a Bentley or a Maserati...
There may be many reasons, but the fact is SM is not highly considered amonst classics.
It is better seen by those who want to replace the engine and drive it every day (they're willing to pay more).
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Jon
Hm, I suppose its a question of whether you want the car to be a reliable daily driver, albeit one with less value if the engine has been swapped, or, you intend to use the car occasionally, as a Classic, in which case it seems pointless in swapping the engine given time and costs involved.
I was trying to think what engine could be mated to the SM 5 speed box. From the trivia floating in my brain I recalled that the Lotus Turbo Esprit 2.2 16v used an SM transaxle! Not a lot of good to you!
I was trying to think what engine could be mated to the SM 5 speed box. From the trivia floating in my brain I recalled that the Lotus Turbo Esprit 2.2 16v used an SM transaxle! Not a lot of good to you!
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Thunderbird
Lotus... Some older models, like early seventies (SM's time) have higher value than the SM and are harder to find... In that case, I would prefer the original Lotus than a SM with a Lotus engine!
You gave me a good idea. I am about to abandon this forum and join the classic Lotus forum. Does anyone know the address? [8D][:D][:)]
Better yet - after all, the Lotus is a toy. Why not target something much better, with more engineering and prestige (and much more expensive too...), like a 70's Maserati Bora?! [:0][:0][:0]
You gave me a good idea. I am about to abandon this forum and join the classic Lotus forum. Does anyone know the address? [8D][:D][:)]
Better yet - after all, the Lotus is a toy. Why not target something much better, with more engineering and prestige (and much more expensive too...), like a 70's Maserati Bora?! [:0][:0][:0]
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Thunderbird
I've been censored! There was a second paragraph to my post above. Not that interesting, obviously, but it appears not to be possible to write W*nkel. The board changes it to 'rubbishel'.
I was being serious. Buy a late 70s early 80s Mazda (memory says B3?) motor. Why put in a V6 from an XM, it has only 180 bhp? No change there, so what's the point? Reliability? Marginal. An HDi has only 110 or 130bhp for the 2.2. Chip it to 150. Again, why? Fuel economy? You're still going to have to turn the drive direction. When you've paid out enough money to do all that you are going to have to run the car for years to pay yourself back. You cannot run an SM on a budget. Give it up!
Question for Tom Sheppard: What is a Biter motor, please?
I was being serious. Buy a late 70s early 80s Mazda (memory says B3?) motor. Why put in a V6 from an XM, it has only 180 bhp? No change there, so what's the point? Reliability? Marginal. An HDi has only 110 or 130bhp for the 2.2. Chip it to 150. Again, why? Fuel economy? You're still going to have to turn the drive direction. When you've paid out enough money to do all that you are going to have to run the car for years to pay yourself back. You cannot run an SM on a budget. Give it up!
Question for Tom Sheppard: What is a Biter motor, please?
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tomsheppard
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Thunderbird
Tom, so, you see the engine as the soul of the car... (I am not saying I don't share the same opinion).
What you call 'barbarian butchery' is what all manufacturers do, by fitting different engines (souls) in the same bodies...
Even the beautiful 406 coupé, besides the 2.0, the V6, has now a new 2.2 and a HDi!!! Peugeot had an act of 'barbarian butchery' on the 406 coupé!
BMW is starting to put Diesel engines on their coupés too and Audi on the cabriolets!!! Bunch of barbarians!!! [8D]
What you call 'barbarian butchery' is what all manufacturers do, by fitting different engines (souls) in the same bodies...
Even the beautiful 406 coupé, besides the 2.0, the V6, has now a new 2.2 and a HDi!!! Peugeot had an act of 'barbarian butchery' on the 406 coupé!
BMW is starting to put Diesel engines on their coupés too and Audi on the cabriolets!!! Bunch of barbarians!!! [8D]
Hi Thunderbird,
I have 2xm V6. The SEI is finished now (sorned) and I am keeping it for spares. It was finished off by 2 accidents when people hit it while it was parked and not by any mechanical problems. Before that however it was great I loved it. It was a one previous owner with fsh. Nice leather and wood interior. You could drive it all day and not feel tired. Driving it over the Cotswolds to Wales was an absolute pleasure, and if you kept your foot light on the accelerator it was reasonably economical. In fact it returned better figures than the Rover P6 2200s' which I used to drive. You can also drive them reasonably fast, but quite a lot of cars can get by you off the mark as it were, maybe that's because I drive an auto though. Also I don't really want to scream my engine or chuck fuel out the back, and I would not want to blow the thing up. Now I am using the V6 SI S1. This is velour and has a plainer interior, but it is still very comfortable and again it has been very well looked after by its 2 previous owners in fact this car was always garaged and parts have been replaced assiduously so it looks like new in the engine bay and there is no rust anywhere. It doesn't have the automatic digital climate control that the sei has and that is a bonus because you can decide when you want cooling and not the bloody machine, and it doesn't just switch itself back on at some random point in your journey. Of course I have suffered all the niggling minor problems in the electrical and hlm departments that plague these cars, but they do run beautifully smoothly and quietly and long runs. And then there's the budget well I paid £495 for the first and £256 for the second. I had to pay £400 to repair the steering on the 1st in its second year, and £60 for the oil pressure relief valve to be replaced on the second car +plus oil. So they have not exactly been expensive to run. I would say that if you can repair them yourself and have access to a trusted mechanic for back up they are the bargain of the early 21st century!!
I have 2xm V6. The SEI is finished now (sorned) and I am keeping it for spares. It was finished off by 2 accidents when people hit it while it was parked and not by any mechanical problems. Before that however it was great I loved it. It was a one previous owner with fsh. Nice leather and wood interior. You could drive it all day and not feel tired. Driving it over the Cotswolds to Wales was an absolute pleasure, and if you kept your foot light on the accelerator it was reasonably economical. In fact it returned better figures than the Rover P6 2200s' which I used to drive. You can also drive them reasonably fast, but quite a lot of cars can get by you off the mark as it were, maybe that's because I drive an auto though. Also I don't really want to scream my engine or chuck fuel out the back, and I would not want to blow the thing up. Now I am using the V6 SI S1. This is velour and has a plainer interior, but it is still very comfortable and again it has been very well looked after by its 2 previous owners in fact this car was always garaged and parts have been replaced assiduously so it looks like new in the engine bay and there is no rust anywhere. It doesn't have the automatic digital climate control that the sei has and that is a bonus because you can decide when you want cooling and not the bloody machine, and it doesn't just switch itself back on at some random point in your journey. Of course I have suffered all the niggling minor problems in the electrical and hlm departments that plague these cars, but they do run beautifully smoothly and quietly and long runs. And then there's the budget well I paid £495 for the first and £256 for the second. I had to pay £400 to repair the steering on the 1st in its second year, and £60 for the oil pressure relief valve to be replaced on the second car +plus oil. So they have not exactly been expensive to run. I would say that if you can repair them yourself and have access to a trusted mechanic for back up they are the bargain of the early 21st century!!
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ghostrider
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As I understand it, the only real problem with the SM engine (ex Merak) is the cam chain, there is a mod which fixes it and I would think that there are very few left that haven't had it done. if you want a Merc a 450SL or a mid 80s 500sec AMG would both be good bets, but drive a CX GTI turbo II and you'll find it hard to better, the performance in standard form is awesome, it is accelerating as quickly at 110 as does at 50. LJK Setright has on many occasions praised its performance and comfort, I've driven 1200 miles in one hit in one the only problem being to stay awake it has to be one of the least tiring cars I have ever driven. Add a maikonics stage II for around ?450 and you have a real monster of a car, but easy to work on, what could be simpler than a 4cylinder, pushrod 2 valve per cylinder engine. The self centreing steering is an acquired taste. but once you get used to it truly wonderful and probably the sharpest turn in that you'll ever see on 1.5 tons of car. The heat problem I resolved by putting shut off valves in the heater matrix for summer use. The XM is great but nothing like the performance of the CX even in 3litre V6 form. I had a DS 23 EFI semi auto which was more charming but I reckon the CX is the thinking man's DS, after all it was very much an evolution of the DS, in fact if you look in the wing mirror of a cx the roofline is almost identical to the D
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Last edited by ghostrider on 22 Feb 2011, 05:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Thunderbird
I agree CX and SM provide a much more comfortable and pleasant drive than a Xantia. They also have more character.
The XM is half-way, with the advantage of not rusting, however here on my country XM parts are very expensive and you usually have to wait a long time to get them. My father '90 XM 2.0 also had hundreds of electrical problems.
I suppose XM mk2 is a very reliable car. It also has the new generation of V6's (PSA-Reanult, 194Hp), much more reliable and economical than the previous PRV 170Hp (PSA-Ranult-Volvo). The automatic version is the best option. Not easy to find, however, since very few were sold - at 1997, XM image on the market was really old and depreciated, compared to others. It's easy to find cheap Xm mk1, but I think they're too risky.
The XM is half-way, with the advantage of not rusting, however here on my country XM parts are very expensive and you usually have to wait a long time to get them. My father '90 XM 2.0 also had hundreds of electrical problems.
I suppose XM mk2 is a very reliable car. It also has the new generation of V6's (PSA-Reanult, 194Hp), much more reliable and economical than the previous PRV 170Hp (PSA-Ranult-Volvo). The automatic version is the best option. Not easy to find, however, since very few were sold - at 1997, XM image on the market was really old and depreciated, compared to others. It's easy to find cheap Xm mk1, but I think they're too risky.