Hiya,
I've been modifying my 405 Tdi somewhat, and now I really need to up the intercooling capability to run higher boost.
I've seen several really good threads in the Citroen threads, so thought it'd be best to ask around here than the Peugeot one since they all share the same engine.
Well anyway, I'm currently using a fairly oldish top mounted stock intercooler, which is not bad apparently, but I dod notice it gets huge heat soak when you slow down/accelerate, anything other than cruising motorways and A roads.
I have managed to get hold of the inlet manifold from a Xantia I think, where the pipe comes up central over the top of the cam cover.
Now, I have removed my air-con (have a sun-roof and it dodn't work anyway), so I have tons of room in the front for a bigger intercooler, or can modify/mess around to make something fit!
Well, I'm wondering what other intercoolers are ok to use... Maybe get a Cotroen front one, and use it WITH the top mounted one. I've seen loads of intercoolers on Ebay from tdi Landrovers (probably had an Allard Conversion), and was wondering if these were much better than what I have already!?
Just thought I'd throw a few questions at the people who seem to know! It'd be nice to go to Allard's, but it's a long way, and I don't really want to spend too much money.
Has anyone done a DIY Allard kit by the way?
Cheers for any help
Dave
Intercoolers
Moderator: RichardW
Hi,
You can mount the 405 one at the front using the xantia (or any 1.9d n/a manifold) quite easily, you need to make up some brackets and use the end tank off another top mounted td intercooler to make it have a hose connection on either end. Just prise up the retaining clips using a flat balde screwdriver and pop the end tank off. Be careful though beacuase they snap easily. Dont lost the rubber seal and use it again.
The biggest problem is routing the hoses through to the intercooler. You will need to remove some of the plastic shield around the fans and remove the bolted-in shields as well. Then just go to a scrappies and find the correct shaped hose to make it round the corner. Or do waht I did and go to a stainless exhaust place and get the right shape made up (mandrel bends are best).
Hope this helps
Cheers
EDIT: you cant easily put the two coolers in line as the one on top of the engine needs the right connection for the intake manifold, and as you are changing that anyway.....[;)]
You can mount the 405 one at the front using the xantia (or any 1.9d n/a manifold) quite easily, you need to make up some brackets and use the end tank off another top mounted td intercooler to make it have a hose connection on either end. Just prise up the retaining clips using a flat balde screwdriver and pop the end tank off. Be careful though beacuase they snap easily. Dont lost the rubber seal and use it again.
The biggest problem is routing the hoses through to the intercooler. You will need to remove some of the plastic shield around the fans and remove the bolted-in shields as well. Then just go to a scrappies and find the correct shaped hose to make it round the corner. Or do waht I did and go to a stainless exhaust place and get the right shape made up (mandrel bends are best).
Hope this helps
Cheers
EDIT: you cant easily put the two coolers in line as the one on top of the engine needs the right connection for the intake manifold, and as you are changing that anyway.....[;)]
Hiya guys, cheers for the tips!
Mrbump, so when you say in-line, are you meaning get another top mounted one, and then get a top-mounted end tank to fit on, so I'd keep the top one like usual AND have a front mounted one?
Hmmmm, that's a great idea, but like you say it's getting the piping to all fit!
Still, it's a nice way of keeping the fairly efficient top-mounted one anyway. Though I've heard they may not take much more than 1.25 bar of boost, last think I want is my intercoolers blowing
Think I may just splash out and get the Allard top-mounted one and fit it myself!
Now to find a good cheap boost gauge to check it as I turn the wastegate in...
Thanks again
Dave
Mrbump, so when you say in-line, are you meaning get another top mounted one, and then get a top-mounted end tank to fit on, so I'd keep the top one like usual AND have a front mounted one?
Hmmmm, that's a great idea, but like you say it's getting the piping to all fit!
Still, it's a nice way of keeping the fairly efficient top-mounted one anyway. Though I've heard they may not take much more than 1.25 bar of boost, last think I want is my intercoolers blowing
Think I may just splash out and get the Allard top-mounted one and fit it myself!
Now to find a good cheap boost gauge to check it as I turn the wastegate in...
Thanks again
Dave
Allards also do a kit to convert from top mount to front mount. Its aimed at the 306 but im sure it wouldnt take too much to change. I would have though turning the front side tank around would be a bad idea, as then you will loose the efficiency of the intercooler(half of it will hardly get used as flow wont go from corner to corner) and you still have the problem of three miles of piping! I've simply cut the turn off and it leaves enough room attacha pipe without having a huge U-Bent.
But you know i might try turning ti round anyways, will make life a lot easier
But you know i might try turning ti round anyways, will make life a lot easier
I said you CAN'T do the two intercoolers in line (in series). Think about it, go and look into the engine bay and think about it. 1) How can you keep the top mounted one and still run another pipe to the front of the car for a front mount? It would have to use the oultet from the turbo, then go to the bumper, then come all the way back to where it started from and turn 180 degrees to enter the top mount!!! 2) If you are going to use the xantia manifold as you said, please explain how the standard cooler is going to fit at the top of the engine?
In my experience, the pressure drop accross two separate intercoolers would not be worth the extra cooling power. However, seat use this method in the cupra sport 1.8t with one intercooler in each corner of the front bumper. So, I am sure a well designed system will work with two small intercoolers instead of one large one (but it will always be less efficient due to the air path). This method is useful when there is no space for a large intercooler.
I would honesly think that front mounting the standard intercooler (which is quite a good size for this engine) would be more efficient than getting an allard top mount. It would be interesting to compare inlet temps with someone who has that conversion. You just need to be careful with the pipes and keep them as straigt as possible.
If you dont want to dissassemble two 405 intercoolers (why would you if they were both good - one of mine were holed hence the butchery) just go to the scrappies and find a larger intercooler to front mount. A good indication of an intercoolers effectiveness is to fill it with water and see how much it holds.
If you get the allard, do you mind having a look at inlet temps?
Cheers..[;)]
In my experience, the pressure drop accross two separate intercoolers would not be worth the extra cooling power. However, seat use this method in the cupra sport 1.8t with one intercooler in each corner of the front bumper. So, I am sure a well designed system will work with two small intercoolers instead of one large one (but it will always be less efficient due to the air path). This method is useful when there is no space for a large intercooler.
I would honesly think that front mounting the standard intercooler (which is quite a good size for this engine) would be more efficient than getting an allard top mount. It would be interesting to compare inlet temps with someone who has that conversion. You just need to be careful with the pipes and keep them as straigt as possible.
If you dont want to dissassemble two 405 intercoolers (why would you if they were both good - one of mine were holed hence the butchery) just go to the scrappies and find a larger intercooler to front mount. A good indication of an intercoolers effectiveness is to fill it with water and see how much it holds.
If you get the allard, do you mind having a look at inlet temps?
Cheers..[;)]
Hmmmmm...
If I did mount two, then I'd leave the top one as is, but have a U bend, but I later decided that was a daft idea anyway.
My brother suggested I just put a top mounted one in the bumper where the air-con was, right behind a fan (still turn on air con which turns on the fan), and then use the Xantia intake manifold. Pipe it up from there with either a fabricated pipe (maybe a custom exhaust as someone said, or just using some of the Xantia piping.
The piping is not really the problem though, finding the best intercooler for the job is my problem, since I have no experience with them really. I thought maybe using two top-mount intercoolers back to back, with a fashioned connector (betweeen the odd shaped manifold connectors) would be good, but then I keep hearing about the pressure dropping across the intercooler.
So I assume, that if the pressure drops, it must compress again as it goes back out along the small pipe, which causes drag and energy losses.
I have seen a few big intercoolers on Ebay, a new Ford Mondeo TDi one was like an RS500 Sierra one, about 450mmX120mmX120mm... Was about 50 quid I think. But, are these any good when it comes to the pressure drop?
So I guess the key points are, straight smooth piping, keep overall friction to a minimum. Intercooler must have a large volume, but a relatively low cross-section... ie not open up hugely to decrease the pressure, but not be too long and thin to cool inefficiently and/or cause too much friction!?
Anyway, thanks again for the help. I'll post some pictures up so you can have a look at what I've got as I go along. Might need some advice tweaking my fuel pump too, if thats ok!
Cheers
Dave
If I did mount two, then I'd leave the top one as is, but have a U bend, but I later decided that was a daft idea anyway.
My brother suggested I just put a top mounted one in the bumper where the air-con was, right behind a fan (still turn on air con which turns on the fan), and then use the Xantia intake manifold. Pipe it up from there with either a fabricated pipe (maybe a custom exhaust as someone said, or just using some of the Xantia piping.
The piping is not really the problem though, finding the best intercooler for the job is my problem, since I have no experience with them really. I thought maybe using two top-mount intercoolers back to back, with a fashioned connector (betweeen the odd shaped manifold connectors) would be good, but then I keep hearing about the pressure dropping across the intercooler.
So I assume, that if the pressure drops, it must compress again as it goes back out along the small pipe, which causes drag and energy losses.
I have seen a few big intercoolers on Ebay, a new Ford Mondeo TDi one was like an RS500 Sierra one, about 450mmX120mmX120mm... Was about 50 quid I think. But, are these any good when it comes to the pressure drop?
So I guess the key points are, straight smooth piping, keep overall friction to a minimum. Intercooler must have a large volume, but a relatively low cross-section... ie not open up hugely to decrease the pressure, but not be too long and thin to cool inefficiently and/or cause too much friction!?
Anyway, thanks again for the help. I'll post some pictures up so you can have a look at what I've got as I go along. Might need some advice tweaking my fuel pump too, if thats ok!
Cheers
Dave
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mrbump</i>
A good indication of an intercoolers effectiveness is to fill it with water and see how much it holds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That gives you an idea of the volume of the intercooler, and yes a large volume would usually be associated with a large intercooler, but a large volumed intercooler also increases your turbo lag because of the time it takes to pressurise the large vessel.
A good indication of an intercoolers effectiveness is to fill it with water and see how much it holds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That gives you an idea of the volume of the intercooler, and yes a large volume would usually be associated with a large intercooler, but a large volumed intercooler also increases your turbo lag because of the time it takes to pressurise the large vessel.
About volume as an indicator of efficiency:
I suppose that the type of intercoolers we are looking at here are from other standard (eg manufacturer) installations, and can be guaged quite well by volume (just as a rule of thumb) as they come in many shapes and forms which is difficult to tell if they are any bigger or not just by looking. You also have to be carful to ignore end tank volume when mesuring the volume.
I have tried various intercoolers from different cars, and just because it looks bigger - doesnt mean it is any larger volumetrically.
If you are not using the standard one front mounted, I would go for as new a cooler as possible from a petrol car of 2 liters and above. As sooty said, too large and you will just introduce lag, which is also a consideration when front mounting the standard one as the pipework volume must be at least 10 times the original set-up!
Cheers
I suppose that the type of intercoolers we are looking at here are from other standard (eg manufacturer) installations, and can be guaged quite well by volume (just as a rule of thumb) as they come in many shapes and forms which is difficult to tell if they are any bigger or not just by looking. You also have to be carful to ignore end tank volume when mesuring the volume.
I have tried various intercoolers from different cars, and just because it looks bigger - doesnt mean it is any larger volumetrically.
If you are not using the standard one front mounted, I would go for as new a cooler as possible from a petrol car of 2 liters and above. As sooty said, too large and you will just introduce lag, which is also a consideration when front mounting the standard one as the pipework volume must be at least 10 times the original set-up!
Cheers
Right, now at the moment I'm trying to get the best from my current setup.
At the moment I have just the master fuelling turned up on my Bosch fuel pump, ie the small adjuster at the side of the pump, above the 4 fuel outlet pipes.
Problem is, just as the boost is building, it smokes a bit, and so needs turning down.
However, the fuel "ramp" is adjusted by the top adjuster, under the diagphram which moves under the pressure from the pipe, which one a Peugeot, comes from the front of the intercooler into the head of the pump.
I'm just curious how this is adjusted. Right now, mine looks like it has the usual top end, and in the middle of the pressure adjuster thing, there is a nut, whithin which is a torq bolt. It has the usual yellow paint stuff to detect tampering.
Do I simply loosen the nut, and then turn the torq bolt clockwise or anti clockwise to adjust the ramping?
Do I actually adjust this, or do I have to delve inside the whole unit to adjust it?
Any help here would be much appreciated!
PS, how much boost do you think a standard 405 intercooler could take, I've heard any more than 1 bar just gets the temp up more, and so you see no more gain! Hence the need for a bigger cooler.
Thanks again!
Dave
At the moment I have just the master fuelling turned up on my Bosch fuel pump, ie the small adjuster at the side of the pump, above the 4 fuel outlet pipes.
Problem is, just as the boost is building, it smokes a bit, and so needs turning down.
However, the fuel "ramp" is adjusted by the top adjuster, under the diagphram which moves under the pressure from the pipe, which one a Peugeot, comes from the front of the intercooler into the head of the pump.
I'm just curious how this is adjusted. Right now, mine looks like it has the usual top end, and in the middle of the pressure adjuster thing, there is a nut, whithin which is a torq bolt. It has the usual yellow paint stuff to detect tampering.
Do I simply loosen the nut, and then turn the torq bolt clockwise or anti clockwise to adjust the ramping?
Do I actually adjust this, or do I have to delve inside the whole unit to adjust it?
Any help here would be much appreciated!
PS, how much boost do you think a standard 405 intercooler could take, I've heard any more than 1 bar just gets the temp up more, and so you see no more gain! Hence the need for a bigger cooler.
Thanks again!
Dave
Hmmm weird.
I took off the top of the pressure thing on the pump, the thing with the diagphram on, and removed it.
I notced the scratch on the cone at the bottom where the pin must extend as the rod is pushed down with the pressure.
I tunrned the stopper (which stops the rod pushing in too far), and this didn't make any difference. I assumed that there was insufficient pressure to push it to the stop anyway.
I also noticed that the cone is offset. If you turn it when you put it back in, it essentially turns the fuelling up. I'm not sure exactly how it alters the fuelling, but I'd guess it's about the same as turning the other screw at the side of the pump.
I thought if you allow the diagphram rod to move further OUT of the cylinder, the cone moves towards the pin, reducing fuelling. It also means, under pressure, the rod can move down MORE, ie travel is longer.
To retain the low-speed, off-boost fuelling I turned the rod so the pin that pushes against it would be roughly the same as standard, but as the boost builds, the newly offset position of the cone means the full-boost fuelling will be higher.
This was the desired effect I was after. Since I was getting black smoke just as the boost kicked in, but under-fuelling on-boost.
To get more boost though, I really need the intercooler. Then I can leave everything stock, and just adjust the on-boost stopper for the cone thingy under the diagphram. Then it'll fuel more anyway, and the diagphram start position can be set lower again. Only with an offset to increase overall fuelling.
Bloomin complicated pumps these. Might be worth taking it to Allard to save me the hastle. It's only about 50 quid more for them to fit it all over DIY!
Seya
Dave
I took off the top of the pressure thing on the pump, the thing with the diagphram on, and removed it.
I notced the scratch on the cone at the bottom where the pin must extend as the rod is pushed down with the pressure.
I tunrned the stopper (which stops the rod pushing in too far), and this didn't make any difference. I assumed that there was insufficient pressure to push it to the stop anyway.
I also noticed that the cone is offset. If you turn it when you put it back in, it essentially turns the fuelling up. I'm not sure exactly how it alters the fuelling, but I'd guess it's about the same as turning the other screw at the side of the pump.
I thought if you allow the diagphram rod to move further OUT of the cylinder, the cone moves towards the pin, reducing fuelling. It also means, under pressure, the rod can move down MORE, ie travel is longer.
To retain the low-speed, off-boost fuelling I turned the rod so the pin that pushes against it would be roughly the same as standard, but as the boost builds, the newly offset position of the cone means the full-boost fuelling will be higher.
This was the desired effect I was after. Since I was getting black smoke just as the boost kicked in, but under-fuelling on-boost.
To get more boost though, I really need the intercooler. Then I can leave everything stock, and just adjust the on-boost stopper for the cone thingy under the diagphram. Then it'll fuel more anyway, and the diagphram start position can be set lower again. Only with an offset to increase overall fuelling.
Bloomin complicated pumps these. Might be worth taking it to Allard to save me the hastle. It's only about 50 quid more for them to fit it all over DIY!
Seya
Dave