Hello everyone.
I'm Francisco, 23 y.o. and live in Lisbon, Portugal.
I want to share my life with the C5.
2 years ago , while ridding a skid steer loader ( a.ka. Bobcat), i met my life-long partners: 2 lumbar disk hernias. Oh, what a joy it has been! [}:)]
I own a Vauxhall/Opel Frontera, 2.2DTI.
After my "marriage", i fitted a variable suspension dampening system (no damping to rock-hard) and a Recaro seat. Now this seat is something, as it allowed me to drive quite comfortably.
My Mom's Passat (both these cars are from '99) had a really bad seat (for me) and that lovely german suspension.
So, we decided it was time for another ride.
I tryed and bought (but only for a week, as the guy who sold me the car ommited it had 4 previous owners) a 1995 1.6L Xantia with 1160.000kms. The car was really nice, comfy seats, great suspension (i found the rear a little hard...spheres.). Oh, what a car. It was a week in Heaven! [:D]
So, more recently i bought a dealers demonstration car, a '99 Pug 406 V6, auto gearbox. "Smooth, just like silk." But still, at a distance from the Xantia. But very comfy, for my 2 "ladies", with superb leather seats.
Now, my Mom decided it was time to have an estate to complement the fleet. After trying several C5's, for a period of a year (when my spine was in a more lethargic state) we decided to buy another dealer's car, a C% 2.0HDI Estate, from July 2003 with only 17.000Kms.
With my spine now remembering me of the golden age of pain, even as i write this, the C5 is really a piece of .... (imagine what you want). Stiff suspension, not smooth, even on small - in the order of 5mm - road bumps, or depressed sewer lids, the seats are hard, not ergonomic at all, with no support for the back.
Arrrrgh!!!! And we let go of 25.000 euro for it!!!!
Where the heck is that lovely hydropneumatic suspension? For the sake of it, we could still have the Passat and saved the money! (25 grand is still money!)
Now, i either sell it to a friend (depends on his wife), as it's been ours for a week, or start "fiddling" with the spheres.
And, after checking the web, i decided to have a go and enlarge the damper hole by 2 tenths of a milimeter. No more than half a milimeter.
i rode today a C5 equipped with a 1.8L petrol engine, after leaving my estate on the dealer for an BHI reprogramming (no H3+ on my car) and it seemed a *little*, just a teenie-weenie bit smoother. Front sphere pressure is the same, 57 bar. What conclusion do you get? Different dampening!
Comments welcome, please! (and advices too)
Now, i'm going to bed to relief the pain a bit.
All the best,
Patxi
Me and my C5 - a real story
Moderator: RichardW
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DoubleChevron
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Yeah,
get yourself a 'DS'. It'll cost you a sh!tload to pay other people to repair it & keep it on the road, but it's utterly unbeatable for ride comfort. Once you have driven in one NOTHING else will compare ...
Pity the youngest of them are at least 30years old now
Seriously if you can afford to buy a perfect DS, and find a specialist to mantain it, it's probably the most comforable car in the world.
seeya,
Shane L.
get yourself a 'DS'. It'll cost you a sh!tload to pay other people to repair it & keep it on the road, but it's utterly unbeatable for ride comfort. Once you have driven in one NOTHING else will compare ...
Pity the youngest of them are at least 30years old now
Seriously if you can afford to buy a perfect DS, and find a specialist to mantain it, it's probably the most comforable car in the world.seeya,
Shane L.
Well, we discussed this 'ride comfort' several times.
First, don't touch central bores, because this won't bring almost any improvement, only roadholding will suffer. Direct comparison between GS, BX, XM and Xantia spheres in my mechanic's garage showed, that diameter of central bore is almost equal. Only CX (and DS) spheres have bigger bores, but this is accompanied with lower spring rate (bigger spheres and higher volume). Drilling the bores will increase eigen frequency of the car, which should be around 1 Hz for the most comfort ride and will pronounce bouncing of the bump stops.
Xantia spheres have different damper characteristics because of thicker disc around central bore, covering other bores, and I think it's the same in C5, because ride in Xantia mk II and C5 is similar. I'm planing to modify this part somewhere in the future, by reducing the diameter of one or two (of 4 front, 3 rear) outer discs, which will reduce damping during extraction phase of suspension movement. Other option is fitting XM spheres, where these discs are thinner.
And other thing, C5 rides on bump stops extensively. If you look under the rear of the car, you will see that bump stops are touching rear arms, while in Xantia mk II there's about 2 cm clearance. You may try to increase the height of the car 1-2 cm by rotating height corrector clamps on the roll bars, but I'm not sure will this work on C5, because height correctors are electronic sensors here. Maybe height could be increased by some testing device.
Ride in Xantia and C5 is different than it was in my BX, but my personal opinion is that ride comfort is similar - better on some surfaces, worse on other. In fact, all other people that were driven in my Xantia think that ride is better than in BX. Also, I think that ride is still better than on sprunged cars of similar size on most surfaces.
First, don't touch central bores, because this won't bring almost any improvement, only roadholding will suffer. Direct comparison between GS, BX, XM and Xantia spheres in my mechanic's garage showed, that diameter of central bore is almost equal. Only CX (and DS) spheres have bigger bores, but this is accompanied with lower spring rate (bigger spheres and higher volume). Drilling the bores will increase eigen frequency of the car, which should be around 1 Hz for the most comfort ride and will pronounce bouncing of the bump stops.
Xantia spheres have different damper characteristics because of thicker disc around central bore, covering other bores, and I think it's the same in C5, because ride in Xantia mk II and C5 is similar. I'm planing to modify this part somewhere in the future, by reducing the diameter of one or two (of 4 front, 3 rear) outer discs, which will reduce damping during extraction phase of suspension movement. Other option is fitting XM spheres, where these discs are thinner.
And other thing, C5 rides on bump stops extensively. If you look under the rear of the car, you will see that bump stops are touching rear arms, while in Xantia mk II there's about 2 cm clearance. You may try to increase the height of the car 1-2 cm by rotating height corrector clamps on the roll bars, but I'm not sure will this work on C5, because height correctors are electronic sensors here. Maybe height could be increased by some testing device.
Ride in Xantia and C5 is different than it was in my BX, but my personal opinion is that ride comfort is similar - better on some surfaces, worse on other. In fact, all other people that were driven in my Xantia think that ride is better than in BX. Also, I think that ride is still better than on sprunged cars of similar size on most surfaces.
I rode a DS... on regular road and on a repavementing road with holes like craters. I know how a DS feels (sigh!)
The tyres are lousy Michelin Energy, 205/65R15. The profile is indeed on the big side...
I will talk to a Citroens mechanic, who, i was told, is a "brain" relating to hydropneumatic suspensions (must be an old guy...).
Is the new membrane compatible with LHM? The C5 uses LDS, a new synthetic oil. If it is, i guess i'll try some other spheres.
As for the bump stops, instead of rising the car (wich will "stiffen" the suspension a bit), why not cutting them a bit?
Thanks guys!
Patxi
The tyres are lousy Michelin Energy, 205/65R15. The profile is indeed on the big side...
I will talk to a Citroens mechanic, who, i was told, is a "brain" relating to hydropneumatic suspensions (must be an old guy...).
Is the new membrane compatible with LHM? The C5 uses LDS, a new synthetic oil. If it is, i guess i'll try some other spheres.
As for the bump stops, instead of rising the car (wich will "stiffen" the suspension a bit), why not cutting them a bit?
Thanks guys!
Patxi
Well, cutting rear bump stops is also an option, although it's hard to predict the results, because the rest of the bump stop will be stiffer. It will be harder to cut front ones, because they are inside the sphere base, on the top of the strut.
Rising the car 1-2 cm won't make it harder. As long as suspension arms don't touch bump/rebound stops, spring rate depends on the spheres only.
Unfortunately, I don't know if older spheres are compatible with new hydraulic fluid. Probably XM spheres should be worth trying, but ...
Rising the car 1-2 cm won't make it harder. As long as suspension arms don't touch bump/rebound stops, spring rate depends on the spheres only.
Unfortunately, I don't know if older spheres are compatible with new hydraulic fluid. Probably XM spheres should be worth trying, but ...
Just as synthetic brake fluid will eat out an LHM system, I feel the new fluid will do the same to the spheres.
I'm only guessing here but it seems logical to think this will be the case. One is mineral based, the other synthetic.
Mind you, the early Ds operated on a synthetic fluid and were subsequently "converted" to use LHM so perhaps an older Cit mechanic or enthusiast who knows what was involved in that operation may be able to explain what went on.
I'd be making some enquiries before I headed down that potentially expensive track though.
Alan S
I'm only guessing here but it seems logical to think this will be the case. One is mineral based, the other synthetic.
Mind you, the early Ds operated on a synthetic fluid and were subsequently "converted" to use LHM so perhaps an older Cit mechanic or enthusiast who knows what was involved in that operation may be able to explain what went on.
I'd be making some enquiries before I headed down that potentially expensive track though.
Alan S
Hi Paxti,
I decided to keep my 2.0i Xantia until a relacement for C5 is released.
In Australia, doctors often diagnose back pain based on symptoms, rather than a real understanding. Every year, I have new clients come for remedial massage, who tell me they have disk hernia . . . the doctor took xray or MRI and then told them it is heniated disk. And 1 hour later they get off the table with no problem. And it stays pain free.
The reason they are fixed is that the disk is not herniated ; they have nerve pinched in dislocated soft tissue at side of spine. Remedial masseurs, doctors and chiropractors do not know how to put the spinal soft tissue into correct alignment, so sometimes a client will have this pain in back (and sometimes legs) for many years. And then I fix it, using a technique taught to me by a practitioner who is now dead.
In June/July, my wife & I are making a driving holiday in Europe. Maybe we could meet somewhere. If you want to discuss, email me at nicolewis@optusnet.com.au
I decided to keep my 2.0i Xantia until a relacement for C5 is released.
In Australia, doctors often diagnose back pain based on symptoms, rather than a real understanding. Every year, I have new clients come for remedial massage, who tell me they have disk hernia . . . the doctor took xray or MRI and then told them it is heniated disk. And 1 hour later they get off the table with no problem. And it stays pain free.
The reason they are fixed is that the disk is not herniated ; they have nerve pinched in dislocated soft tissue at side of spine. Remedial masseurs, doctors and chiropractors do not know how to put the spinal soft tissue into correct alignment, so sometimes a client will have this pain in back (and sometimes legs) for many years. And then I fix it, using a technique taught to me by a practitioner who is now dead.
In June/July, my wife & I are making a driving holiday in Europe. Maybe we could meet somewhere. If you want to discuss, email me at nicolewis@optusnet.com.au
Peter,
I appreciatte your help.
But i've made 2 MRI's (one in 2002 and the other lats year) and one of the hernias is around 7mm long. They are located between L4/L5 and L5/S1 (the big one - looks like a finger coming out of the disks). The problem is when they pinch my sciatic nerve. Especially since last December. Not even Cortisone helps much.
But we'll talk better, ok?
I retrieved my C5 today, new software. The "specialist" advised me not to touch the spheres (mainly for warranty purposes). But still, i'm looking forward to change them with the ones from the 1.8L petrol version. If they were a bit smoother on that car, with the extra weight of the diesel...
Besides, I've tryed cars raging from 2.000kms to 60.000kms. The ones with fewer kilometres were hard, the one with 60K was smoother. Similar versions. It's all in the damping discs metal fatigue. They get softer with more miles (and bumps!) on them, as the elesticity of the steel starts to go away.
Do you know were i can buy C5 spheres? In Portugal, i need to give the chassis number for the spheres. They seem to be "frightened" that different spheres are fitted. Besides, they cost around 200 euro each (ouch!!!).
Many thanks to all
Patxi
PS: BTW, i was told that pre-C5 Xantias used the same spheres as the C5, only prepared to LHM. As with earlier versions of the DS, where LHM would corrod the system rubber with the first yellow (?) oil, the same happenes with LDS corroding LHM parts, including the membrane.
I appreciatte your help.
But i've made 2 MRI's (one in 2002 and the other lats year) and one of the hernias is around 7mm long. They are located between L4/L5 and L5/S1 (the big one - looks like a finger coming out of the disks). The problem is when they pinch my sciatic nerve. Especially since last December. Not even Cortisone helps much.
But we'll talk better, ok?
I retrieved my C5 today, new software. The "specialist" advised me not to touch the spheres (mainly for warranty purposes). But still, i'm looking forward to change them with the ones from the 1.8L petrol version. If they were a bit smoother on that car, with the extra weight of the diesel...
Besides, I've tryed cars raging from 2.000kms to 60.000kms. The ones with fewer kilometres were hard, the one with 60K was smoother. Similar versions. It's all in the damping discs metal fatigue. They get softer with more miles (and bumps!) on them, as the elesticity of the steel starts to go away.
Do you know were i can buy C5 spheres? In Portugal, i need to give the chassis number for the spheres. They seem to be "frightened" that different spheres are fitted. Besides, they cost around 200 euro each (ouch!!!).
Many thanks to all
Patxi
PS: BTW, i was told that pre-C5 Xantias used the same spheres as the C5, only prepared to LHM. As with earlier versions of the DS, where LHM would corrod the system rubber with the first yellow (?) oil, the same happenes with LDS corroding LHM parts, including the membrane.
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David Goddard
- Posts: 138
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Strange, my C5 is smoother than my (re-sphered) '97 Hydractive 2 Xantia. My BX is the smoothest of the three. I guess that increasing the orifice dia. will reduce the damping effect.
Springing is by compressing the N2 in the spheres. No N2, no spring and hence with no LDS/LHM "flow", no damping.
Running on the bump stops only = rock hard suspension and little, if any, damping. Bad news!
Springing is by compressing the N2 in the spheres. No N2, no spring and hence with no LDS/LHM "flow", no damping.
Running on the bump stops only = rock hard suspension and little, if any, damping. Bad news!
Front spheres 1.8 16v
part no: 96 420 906 80
volume 385 ccm
pressure 57 bar
central bore 1.9/1.3 mm
Front spheres 2.0 HDi
part no: 96 420 907 80
volume 385 ccm
pressure 57 bar
central bore 1.75/1.3 mm
I think that 1.8 spheres will make only marginal difference. 2.0 Hdi is felt harder mainly because spring rate of the sphere is higher if the supported weight is higher. Central bores control only slow vertical movements of the car, while its behaviour on the bumps is controlled mainly by the damper valves. And that part is probably the same (at least it looked the same to me on different spheres for Xantia, no matter hydractive or non-hydractive). If you can check somewhere, report us is this true.
part no: 96 420 906 80
volume 385 ccm
pressure 57 bar
central bore 1.9/1.3 mm
Front spheres 2.0 HDi
part no: 96 420 907 80
volume 385 ccm
pressure 57 bar
central bore 1.75/1.3 mm
I think that 1.8 spheres will make only marginal difference. 2.0 Hdi is felt harder mainly because spring rate of the sphere is higher if the supported weight is higher. Central bores control only slow vertical movements of the car, while its behaviour on the bumps is controlled mainly by the damper valves. And that part is probably the same (at least it looked the same to me on different spheres for Xantia, no matter hydractive or non-hydractive). If you can check somewhere, report us is this true.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patxi</i>
Do you know were i can buy C5 spheres? In Portugal, i need to give the chassis number for the spheres. They seem to be "frightened" that different spheres are fitted. Besides, they cost around 200 euro each (ouch!!!).
Many thanks to all
Patxi
PS: BTW, i was told that pre-C5 Xantias used the same spheres as the C5, only prepared to LHM. As with earlier versions of the DS, where LHM would corrod the system rubber with the first yellow (?) oil, the same happenes with LDS corroding LHM parts, including the membrane.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This any help?
I know people in Portugal who have used these in BXs & reckon they are a good company to deal with.
http://www.lizarte.com/textose/aspectos8.html
Alan S
Do you know were i can buy C5 spheres? In Portugal, i need to give the chassis number for the spheres. They seem to be "frightened" that different spheres are fitted. Besides, they cost around 200 euro each (ouch!!!).
Many thanks to all
Patxi
PS: BTW, i was told that pre-C5 Xantias used the same spheres as the C5, only prepared to LHM. As with earlier versions of the DS, where LHM would corrod the system rubber with the first yellow (?) oil, the same happenes with LDS corroding LHM parts, including the membrane.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
This any help?
I know people in Portugal who have used these in BXs & reckon they are a good company to deal with.
http://www.lizarte.com/textose/aspectos8.html
Alan S