Hello everyone,
I'm in not-so-sunny Spain at the moment, eagerly awaiting tomorrow's weather forecast to come true and sunshine to warm me up so I can get to looking at my car. Trouble is, I don't know what to do with it, I'm a bit stuck.
Just finished getting my parent's Xantia happier with an oil change, work on the device behind the airbag that keeps the wires connected throughout the range of circular motion of the steering wheel (wire broken off causing red steering wheel light to illuminate intermittently when turning wheel) and sticking a new pollen filter in, 'cause they were getting rather tired of the curry smell. More fish+chips type people really.
With that out the way, I've decided to get back to my Renault Clio RT 1.4 1993 while I'm in the country. It's been sitting here for a while since I returned to the UK and still has the same troubles it's always had. I know this isn't a Renault forum, but everyone here seems so helpful and knowledgeable, I wondered if someone might be able to offer some advice.
It's always had poor brakes. I've done the checks to ensure the vaccuum servo is working and it passed but it seems to need a lot of pressure to stop the car and the brakes lack bite. I replaced the front disc pads and it's still roughly the same. Haven't yet checked the back drum pads. Calipers are free-moving and so are pistons, disc is hardly worn and all in good condition. Have bled all four wheels, no difference. What next?!
Other problem is more annoying and to me, more dangerous. The steering is far too heavy for such a small, light car. It's worse than a bigger car with no PAS. This car has no power-assisted steering but then I've driven other Clio's of the same era and they are easy to handle, my brother's was. With the front of the car off the ground on axle stands, the steering is light as a feather, ruling out (I think) the two balljoints that are involved in movement when the wheel is moved. The steering rack must be okay if it's light with no weight on it? The only other component that moves is the suspension strut, and this, it seems, is the only component that really suffers and changes from the weight of the car on the wheels, but have I overlooked other things before trying to get the bearings out of the top of the struts and finding replacements in my last 6 days here with no spring compressor?
The steering is okay for slight movement of the wheel around minor bends but anything more, especially corners, and I need to use all my strength, my mother can barely drive it 'cause of this. It's like a Xantia when the PAS goes. Really, it's that bad. Incidentally, done the toe setting (tracking) and that's fine. Car doesn't wander or go to the side. Tyres are newish and good.
Please somebody help, I'm out of ideas!
Thanks all [8D]
Steering and brake problems...
Moderator: RichardW
james
Your steering sounds like something siezing under load and strut top bearings could be a cause. When they fail they can be a source of noise as the car goes over bumps. Depending on the construction it may be possible to lubricate them which might give a clue as to where the problem is. Another possibility I suppose is a siezed rack or its pinion (or for that matter perhaps even the column itself). It couldbe that the rack has gouged out its guides and while with no load it moves freely, when under load it bends or something and goes tight.
I would have thought bottom swivels were unlikely as they do not carry any load, whereas the top bearings do.
With regard to the brakes why not have a look at some of the postings on ZX brakes which in lesser specs are probably very similar (they are almost identical to a Renault 21 I used to have)
jeremy
Your steering sounds like something siezing under load and strut top bearings could be a cause. When they fail they can be a source of noise as the car goes over bumps. Depending on the construction it may be possible to lubricate them which might give a clue as to where the problem is. Another possibility I suppose is a siezed rack or its pinion (or for that matter perhaps even the column itself). It couldbe that the rack has gouged out its guides and while with no load it moves freely, when under load it bends or something and goes tight.
I would have thought bottom swivels were unlikely as they do not carry any load, whereas the top bearings do.
With regard to the brakes why not have a look at some of the postings on ZX brakes which in lesser specs are probably very similar (they are almost identical to a Renault 21 I used to have)
jeremy
Hmmm....
You've been thru all the common basics - no easy ones left [8D]
Brakes :
As I understand your tests - I can only see 2 options left :
1) Brake pads too hard material.
2) Vacuum servo still functioning - but servo help way too weak.
This can be caused by leaking feed hose from intake manifold, a leaking servo vaccum membrane, or a leaking vacuum pot.
Even the open side of the membrane may be restricted in any vent/filter fitted.
Had this vent/filter problem years ago on my Opel (GM) when I fitted a s/h vacuum servo to upgrade from drums to discs.
If the engine starts & runs no problem and performs well - then you may exclude air leaks on the intake manifold.
3) The brake master cylinder is at fault.
Steering :
The rack itself is not loaded with car on wheels - only when turning and restrictive forces then exists.
There are quite a few other geometric problems possible - other than toe in/out.
One problem may be non-genuine wheels (rims) with an EP not suited for this your Clio model. The EP figure decides the distance between center of tyre and center of swivel joint pivoting point.
In perfect situations these 2 centers should align - for most light-footed steering.
This is a common problem fitting alloy wheels (or wheels from other models) with wrong EP figure.
Even reputed garages makes these mistakes.
You've been thru all the common basics - no easy ones left [8D]
Brakes :
As I understand your tests - I can only see 2 options left :
1) Brake pads too hard material.
2) Vacuum servo still functioning - but servo help way too weak.
This can be caused by leaking feed hose from intake manifold, a leaking servo vaccum membrane, or a leaking vacuum pot.
Even the open side of the membrane may be restricted in any vent/filter fitted.
Had this vent/filter problem years ago on my Opel (GM) when I fitted a s/h vacuum servo to upgrade from drums to discs.
If the engine starts & runs no problem and performs well - then you may exclude air leaks on the intake manifold.
3) The brake master cylinder is at fault.
Steering :
The rack itself is not loaded with car on wheels - only when turning and restrictive forces then exists.
There are quite a few other geometric problems possible - other than toe in/out.
One problem may be non-genuine wheels (rims) with an EP not suited for this your Clio model. The EP figure decides the distance between center of tyre and center of swivel joint pivoting point.
In perfect situations these 2 centers should align - for most light-footed steering.
This is a common problem fitting alloy wheels (or wheels from other models) with wrong EP figure.
Even reputed garages makes these mistakes.
-
JamesQB
- Posts: 375
- Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 18:01
- Location: North Wales, United Kingdom
- My Cars: Citroen Xantia 1.8 - I miss this car a lot.
- x 5
Hi, back from Spain now. I took out the old brake pads which still had pad left but looked the worse for wear, and replaced with nice new ones. Not much difference really, just a tad more bite after wearing them in a bit. I decided that with the time limit I couldn't do more and the Haynes manual told me that you can't buy a kit for the master brake cylinder to renew seals, etc and that the whole unit can only be purchased whern problems arise.
As for the steering, again time was a problem but thank you both for your ideas. If I could have got hold of spring compressors, then checking the suspension strut top bearing would have been possible but as for the steering rack, never removed one or checked one before so didn't want to take it on with only a few days to spare.
You may recall I asked a question about a split pipe on my parent's Xantia 1.8i that someone helpfully identified as the 'oil vapour hose'. It was split and the car losing lots of oil, but not necessarily because of the pipe. I thought it best to do the pipe first though and Gunk the engine to rule it out. Pipe was actually completely broken and had huge split in the top. Came out of engine bay in two parts. Bottom two pipes were blocked with dry oil and carbon and so were the metal tubes coming out the engine that the pipes pushed over. Cleaned the engine holes out and put new pipe on, noting that pipe didn't have lots of oil in it so wondered immediately if it really could be the cause of large oil leakage.
Discovered that back of engine and entire underbody of car covered in oil which again made me wonder as pipe I replaced was at the front. Seems that oil has been leaking at the back of the engine with some force, but strangely enough changing this pipe seems to have helped a lot. I started thinking then, perhaps this pipe should have been producing a vaccuum in the sump or somewhere that wasn't present cos of pipe blockage and split and pressure built up, blowing oil through the oil seals. Oil may still be leaking but it's hard to tell yet, but clearly if it is, it's nothing like before where every day there'd be a pool of oil under car after driving it and smell of burning oil as it got on to the hot exhaust pipe. Not sure what to make of it. If my theory is right, maybe the seals are now permanently damaged and leaking ever so slightly in relation to previous amount coming out. Who knows.
More worried by the fact that the dodgy garage which did the cam belt after it snapped and replaced a bent valve in the head don't seem to have done a good job and this oil leak has been present since they did that job... perhaps they used old head gasket or something and oil leak is from that? I did a complete oil change and discovered creaminess in the oil filler cap. Now fresh oil is in, just waiting to see if that stays okay and it was just water getting in somehow in the past. I couldn't help but notice that head stretch bolts look old and have rust on them... I wonder if they used the old stretch bolts too? Hmmm...
It all happens at once...
As for the steering, again time was a problem but thank you both for your ideas. If I could have got hold of spring compressors, then checking the suspension strut top bearing would have been possible but as for the steering rack, never removed one or checked one before so didn't want to take it on with only a few days to spare.
You may recall I asked a question about a split pipe on my parent's Xantia 1.8i that someone helpfully identified as the 'oil vapour hose'. It was split and the car losing lots of oil, but not necessarily because of the pipe. I thought it best to do the pipe first though and Gunk the engine to rule it out. Pipe was actually completely broken and had huge split in the top. Came out of engine bay in two parts. Bottom two pipes were blocked with dry oil and carbon and so were the metal tubes coming out the engine that the pipes pushed over. Cleaned the engine holes out and put new pipe on, noting that pipe didn't have lots of oil in it so wondered immediately if it really could be the cause of large oil leakage.
Discovered that back of engine and entire underbody of car covered in oil which again made me wonder as pipe I replaced was at the front. Seems that oil has been leaking at the back of the engine with some force, but strangely enough changing this pipe seems to have helped a lot. I started thinking then, perhaps this pipe should have been producing a vaccuum in the sump or somewhere that wasn't present cos of pipe blockage and split and pressure built up, blowing oil through the oil seals. Oil may still be leaking but it's hard to tell yet, but clearly if it is, it's nothing like before where every day there'd be a pool of oil under car after driving it and smell of burning oil as it got on to the hot exhaust pipe. Not sure what to make of it. If my theory is right, maybe the seals are now permanently damaged and leaking ever so slightly in relation to previous amount coming out. Who knows.
More worried by the fact that the dodgy garage which did the cam belt after it snapped and replaced a bent valve in the head don't seem to have done a good job and this oil leak has been present since they did that job... perhaps they used old head gasket or something and oil leak is from that? I did a complete oil change and discovered creaminess in the oil filler cap. Now fresh oil is in, just waiting to see if that stays okay and it was just water getting in somehow in the past. I couldn't help but notice that head stretch bolts look old and have rust on them... I wonder if they used the old stretch bolts too? Hmmm...
It all happens at once...