I have this vision.....

Brian Oblivion · Post by **Brian Oblivion** » 10 Mar 2004, 21:50

that when Citroen, Peugeot (Renault as well?) design a car the engineers always start-off with a heater matrix and design the car around it. When it gets to the assembly line the first job is for a mechanic to hold a matrix roughly in its intended position whilst his chums or robot friends fit the car around it.[:)]
Judging by the pain of some of the people on the forum from some of the posts (and personal/wallet woe) this must be the only explanation!
Does anybody have similar experiences from non-French cars?

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 10 Mar 2004, 22:36

I can state that Renault cars are as bad as other French ones, taking the heater matrix out means dismantling the front of the car to such an extent that you're almost left with a bare chassis for the front half.
I'm surprised they don't weld them to the chassis and then build everything else around them, ensuring, of course, that the matrix can't be removed without these parts first being taken off again.

nick · Post by **nick** » 10 Mar 2004, 22:59

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Brian Oblivion</i>

Does anybody have similar experiences from non-French cars?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, I remember an '86 Montego that my stepfather owned about ten years ago. The heater matrix burst due to lack of antifreeze. It was in the garage for a couple of days as the entire dashboard and centre console had to come out.
French cars are by no means unique in this respect, practically any modern car is just as bad to change the matrix on.
The difference is, that most other manufacturers fit a matrix that will last 20 years plus, as opposed to '10 years if you're lucky' on a French car [:(!]
Nick

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 Mar 2004, 23:14

It's definately not a French-car specific problem [B)]
It seems to be related to the constant strain on cost effectiveness on sub contractors of parts - thus reaching the final low level of parts quality [V]
There are only a few sub contractors for each type of parts made for Europeen cars - including radiators/heater matrices.

TomH · Post by **TomH** » 10 Mar 2004, 23:16

'scuse my severe ignorance but what exactly IS a heater matrix, its purpose etc?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 Mar 2004, 23:25

The heater matrix is the cabin heater radiator - located somewhere under the dash - where the blower fan can duct air thru - to have the cabin heated - and demist the windscreen.
It's definately OK to ask - if you don't know [:)]

rg · Post by rg » 10 Mar 2004, 23:30

TomH,
If you drive a Citroen, you may become acquainted with it sooner or later...
I wonder if we could get the manufacturers before the European Court of Justice in The Hague for crimes against car owners...

)
rg

oilyspanner · Post by **oilyspanner** » 10 Mar 2004, 23:36

Not to mention the scores of little old french ladies employed to sharpen parts before they are fitted!
Stewart

Stuart McB · Post by **Stuart McB** » 11 Mar 2004, 01:18

Ah so it's little French ladies who make all those edges razor sharp! I thought it was little French car sales men.

ohms69 · Post by **ohms69** » 11 Mar 2004, 02:12

Surely the degredation of the matrix is linked to improper servicing(incorrect anti-frreze mix and infrequent changes)?
If the coolant is changed frequently using the correct mix then surely the matrix will last the life of the car? [:)]
Or am I just in denial about the fact that my heater matrix faces imminent failure[;)]

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 11 Mar 2004, 02:40

Hi Guys,
not all Cit's are like this. Suggest you get yourself a nice DS and live happily ever after [:D] The heater core is a 30second job to remove !
seeya,
Shane L

DLM · Post by **DLM** » 11 Mar 2004, 02:45

Well, a poor coolant mixture certainly does corrode them away to nothingness in a selective sort of way, judging by my one acquaintance with a matrix found failed on a scrapper when dismantling. All appeared well apart from the point where the coolant entered, which had just dissolved/corroded away...
I wonder if all those little french ladies have the Marquis de Sade as forebears.

ZEGA · Post by **ZEGA** » 11 Mar 2004, 03:25

WEll on XM TD i sopose according to some links on the web it is few hrs job without dismantling the dash...
P 605 too done that, it is a little worse then XM but if you cut some plastic you can do it without dismantling the dash...
ZEGA

noz · Post by **noz** » 11 Mar 2004, 04:05

I've heard a few times people citing corrosion as the enemy of the matrix. Having been there once or twice before myself I can add a little to this debate. In my experience it's not the corrosion of the matrix per se, it's the corrosion of the rest of the system and the deposition of the crap in the matrix which bungs it up.
I kept the last one for posterity and took the header tank off for a laugh. The little tubes (passes and rows in heat-exchanger speak) have a turbulator fitted to each. A turbulator is a thin ribbon of metal which is twisted along it's length (looks like pasta twirls). It is inserted into each tube and as the water passes throught the tube, turbulence is created by the turbulator thus improving the heat transfer rate significantly. The same thoery is used in the tubes of industrial boilers.
I can take photos of the offending item but I'd need to find somewhere to upload them to so that they can be seen by all.
That's the clever part. Now the not so clever part. The tubes are only about 10mm internal diameter at best. Once the turbulator is inserted there's not much room left in the tube. Any crud passing into the matrix from the rest of the engine will block these tiny ports very easily. No water = no heat.
I am forced to agree that good maintenance of the anti-freeze which comes with corrosion inhibitor added would seem to be the answer. In my last CX I installed a strainer on the rubber hose on the supply to the matrix. This was a bit of insurance against having to take the matrix and everything that goes with it, out again.
cheers
noz
ps
The last 3 times I have replaced a matrix I bought them from Serck Marston rather than take out a mortgage for a Citroen one.

Post by **RichardW** » 11 Mar 2004, 12:50

Noz,
The problem with later cars is not lack of heat it's leaking of the matrix - and is not unknown even in well maintained cars. IF I decide to do mine later in the year I am certainly going to dismantle it to try and see the cause as I have a suspicion that it is erosion rather than corrosion, which would tie in with what DLM said about only the entry to the matix leaking.
My Dad had a heater go on his first vehicle (F**D 100E van - he saw the light after that, well, after a few years and 3 engine rebuilds with a BMC 1100!) - 5 minute job to drop the hoses off and whip it out, then take it along to the local rad man who ran about 1/2 lb of solder all over the end! If only it were still so simple....