1.6HDi long running issues

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leftfootleashed
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1.6HDi long running issues

Post by leftfootleashed »

Not been on this forum for a while - I got thoroughly demoralised by the amount of work I put into my 56 plate Berlingo's 1.6HDi for no visible improvement. I'm back here because (to my complete surprise) it passed it's MOT last week. I had thoroughly expected it to fail the emissions test, but it passed with no advisories, as when warm there wasn't enough smoke to fail it.

The engine is the 1.6HDi 8-valve 75ps and I think is the older pre-DPF version (thank heaven small mercies :lol: )

Problems
It burns oil - not a huge amount, but more than it should.
There's a lot of oil in the air intake (from the rocker cover vent through the turbo, intercooler, and throttle, and into the inlet manifold).
On starting, particularly cold, it produces a huge cloud of black smoke.
It starts a little hard from cold and runs rough for the first few seconds.
It runs a few degrees cooler than it should.

Work I've done
Suspecting some of the common and well-documented problems with this engine, in the summer I dropped the sump and gave it a good clean and cleaned the turbo oil feed out. There was no obvious clogging, and the revised design banjo bolt filter in the turbo oil feed had been fitted. I replaced the turbo core anyway as I thought I detected play in the bearings.

I replaced the injector seals and retorqued the injector clamp bolts - these didn't appear to have worked loose.

I found the EGR valve and ducting, inlet manifold and inlet ports were heavily clogged with soot (pics here). I cleaned everything out, and ran it with the EGR valve shut (unplugged) from then (June 2018) til last month (Jan 2019) when I plugged it back in to get rid of the engine warning light for the MOT (am I allowed to mention this? 8-[ ).

It's had three oil and filter changes since then, using decent filters and Total Quartz Ineo ECS 5W30 (ACEA C2 spec). It's probably done about 4000 miles in that time. It was suggested way back that I might be overfilling the oil (since some conventional wisdom suggests low oil capacity contributes to some of the turbo failures) but I've run it both at the maximum and minimum fill mark and there's no obvious difference.

Oil is being passed out of the rocker cover into the air intake. I understand that it's normal for some oily air to get pushed out to ventilate the crankcase, but it's definitely excessive. I've tried to seal where the pipe goes onto the rocker cover, having read that a leak here (caused by a old/worn o-ring) causes a lack of back pressure. The pressure was regularly blowing the pipe of the turbo itself, but I've since replaced the orange seal on it, and it's stayed on - however I think that's probably just pushed the problem somewhere else.

MOT
I'd given up the car really, and was expecting it to fail its MOT and then I scrap it/sell it as spares and buy another. I went and had a chat with a local garage advertised as a French car specialist, and told the guy what the problems were and what I'd done, as above. He seemed to know the engine (as you'd expect) and said I'd done everything he would have. I wanted him to try and diagnose and fix the problem, but his suggestion was that he try and MOT it first, so I took it in and let him do that. It passed, and he seemed unwilling to investigate further and repeated that I'd done everything he would do, and so I took it away. Now I'm wondering what to do next. I'm willing to spend a bit of money if I can get it sorted, if only someone will take it!

What to do next
I'm a bit stumped as to what to do next.

I'm starting to wonder whether an injector problem could be causing this. I have access to a friend's Lexia/Diagbox setup now (though no experience using it) - not sure if that could help.

Also considered replacing the rocker cover to see whether whatever PCV valve in the cover itself is venting excess oil.

The engine has always run a little cool - I think stat opening temperature is 83degrees and it runs consistently about 77. Not a huge amount and can't imagine it's causing all this trouble. On any other car, it would be a 5 minute job with a £5 part, and I would have done it months, but it's a £50 part buried down the side of the engine, and looks like the coolant needs to be drained/replaced/bled to replace it, so I haven't bothered.

A couple of old threads about these problems:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60577
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=60245

Anyone got any bright ideas? Because I'm losing the will to live here :lol:
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white exec
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by white exec »

I think you are right to look at the breather/oil-return arrangement for the rocker cover.
Can you see (if even possible) an excessive amount of oil in there?

Turbo/intake/intercooler can be lightly oily, but shouldn't be awash with it.
I know it's an HDi, but are the glowplugs operating correctly?

You could also consider a slightly heavier oil, maybe. I won't advise on this, because there will be an avalanche of recommendations. This not likely to be the real cause of the issue, though.
Chris
leftfootleashed
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by leftfootleashed »

white exec wrote: 03 Feb 2019, 11:55 I think you are right to look at the breather/oil-return arrangement for the rocker cover.
Can you see (if even possible) an excessive amount of oil in there?
Yes, there definitely is.
white exec wrote: 03 Feb 2019, 11:55 I know it's an HDi
Does the HDi have a different glowplug arrangement? (Have to admit I know bugger all about glowplugs).
white exec wrote: 03 Feb 2019, 11:55 are the glowplugs operating correctly?
I know the glowplug light on the dash comes on when you turn the key in the ignition (which I always leave to go out before starting). Beyond that, how would I know if they're not working correctly?
Bick
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by Bick »

Might help to test the amount of blow by with a manometer there should be a figure in the engine spec. This will tell you if its rings but that would not cause the black smoke, a leak off test or some decent diag time might give you an idea. Like you say you have covered so much that is all i can suggest - sorry
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white exec
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by white exec »

Remove the rocker cover and try to identify the source of all that oil?
May be possible to run the engine briefly with the cover removed (and some old sheets laid around it to catch oil thrown off)? Others here know HDi better than me, so could comment.
Residual oil in the rocker area should be able to run back through the head to the sump.
There should be no real depth of oil in the rocker cover, just a small amount of run-back to sump.
There should also be no great air/vapour pressure under the cover.
Chris
leftfootleashed
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by leftfootleashed »

Hmm... hadn't considered that there might be more oil under the rocker cover than there should be - just assumed it should be there. May try that.

I still think it's likely air pressure that's causing it all to escape into the intake. This could either be excessive positive pressure in the crankcase, or excessive negative pressure from the air intake. There should be some negative pressure generated by the turbo, but it should be equalised by the incoming air from the atmosphere (via the air filter) - a blockage there would explain it, but there isn't one, and I've replaced the filter (briefly considered putting a cone filter in to see if it makes any difference).

I may try a replacement rocker cover so see if it's whatever diaphragm that's in there causing it. You can get a new one for £50 or a one from a breaker for £20, which comes with a free niggling feeling that it might have the same problem (seems very unlikely, but still).
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white exec
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by white exec »

I'm not familiar with the breather arrangement part of the cover.
Someone here may be able to help.
Chris
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by sparksie »

It sounds to me as though you have either a knackered engine, or a crankcase ventilation problem.
If its the former, you can establish it quite easily. Pull the dipstick with the engine running. If there's excessive pressure in there, the result will be a jet of oily fumes coming from the tube. I'd say it's not very likely, though. Much more likely the oil separator in the pcv is not working.
The 1.6HDI is a drippy engine, but not commonly known for this fault, so a scrappy one might be worth a punt, though £20 seems a bit steep.
It might be possible to clean it. Not sure what's in there.
If you've been using cheap oil, or not changing it often enough, the head drain holes may be partially blocked, not allowing oil to drain back to the sump quickly enough, particularly when cold, or at higher revs, which could possibly flood the oil separator, but again, I think this is unlikely. Modern engines don't seem to have these types of difficulty any more.
Back in the day, the semi-official "cure" was to feed a long tube from the breather down under the car and vent the fumes directly to the atmosphere under the passenger compartment! We've come a long way in a very short time!
Sparksie

2000 Xantia 1.9TurboD
leftfootleashed
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by leftfootleashed »

Thanks sparksie. I thought there must be some sort of diaphragm in the rocker cover to regulate the pressure, but I hadn't thought to search for "oil separator." A quick Google turned up this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-CITR ... 3958735277 The photos on there seem to show the problem as well as their expensive solution.

I suspected whatever was in there was under that clip on cap on the right, and have tried to get it off for a look, but it's pretty well held on and I was sure one of the plastic clips would snap. I'll have another go and see what the membrane's like - if it's like the one in the picture, I think that could well be it. If cleaning it doesn't help, I can buy a breaker rocker cover (£20 is a bit steep, but would save me the time of going to a yard and pulling one myself) and check the membrane before replacing it.
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white exec
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and lots of Rovers before that: 1935 Ten, 1947 Sixteen, 1960 P5 3-litre, 1966 P6 2000, 1972 P6 2000TC, and 1975 P6B 3500S
x 1752

Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by white exec »

Replacing the membrane sounds like the way to go. Cheap enough.
An informative advert!
Chris
MikeT
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by MikeT »

Following this thread with interest. I've always wanted to know how/if that cap can be removed in-situ.
leftfootleashed
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by leftfootleashed »

Pulled the cap off today. With extreme care, I managed to get it off only breaking three clips (still seems to close OK).

I was hoping to find the diaphragm gummed up and/or disintegrating like the picture in the advert, but it was fairly clean and intact. There's a spring underneath it which pushes it open. If the spring was weakened with age, it would let less oil/air out, so not that.

Positive air pressure under the rocker cover forces the diaphragm up, and the air, but in theory not the oil, can then flow down through a port to the outlet on the right (which connects to the air intake pipe). I'll post some pictures when I get a chance.

The oil flows back down through a channel in the rocker cover towards the filler cap. There didn't seem to be a blockage here preventing oil flowing back either.

Next to the diaphragm, in the bottom of the rocker cover, there's a small port, which I think is to allow the air up to the diaphragm. The passageway is very narrow and isn't a straight hole (I think to block oil) but didn't seem blocked.

I cleaned everything out with WD40 and compressed air, but I don't think I've really found the problem :?
cancunia
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by cancunia »

A while ago I came across a write-up on the breather and the part that the connection to the air intake plays, might be worth having a read & see if it gives any clues.
https://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/30 ... on-107425/

I saw your post earlier about glowplugs, I think the HDi reference above was meaning that the HDi engines start fairly easily so glowplugs don't play a major part in starting, but they do play a part while the engine warms up. Did you try the engine without the MAF connected?
Last edited by GiveMeABreak on 23 Feb 2019, 13:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for content
C4citroenowner
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Re: 1.6HDi long running issues

Post by C4citroenowner »

It's not bad engine but big problem is oil leaks. I change pcv valve cover sometimes it's help I'm thinking it worth try but in my case it didn't help. And I mounted oil catch tank and its better.

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