Please help: ZX 1.9D seems to be broken

leegre · Post by **leegre** » 02 Mar 2004, 18:14

I have an "M" reg Citroen ZX 1.9 D.
I recently went on a long trip of about 300+ miles, after replenishing my radiator up with water. A couple of days later, before starting back on the return journey I noticed that the heater was blowing cold air into the car instaed of hot, and there was also some water coming through the vents. I immediatley checked under the bonnet and found that I hadn't properly screwed the radiator cap back on, and the coolant level was right down to 0. I have since found out that my next action was a BIG mistake -- I filled the well back up without letting the car cool down first. It seemed to run OK after this, but about 100 miles back on the return journey, my car lost all power and I had to pull off into the hard-shoulder, and there was steam coming from under the bonnet.
I left the car to cool for 3 hours, and kept trying to start it, to no avail. I had to be towed the remainder of the journey.
I would like to know what you think is wrong with my car now, and is it repairable. If so how much do you think, and is it easy to do????
-------------------
Lee G
Proud ZX 1.9D owner

James.UK · Post by **James.UK** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:00

Hi Lee, well you were extremely lucky NOT to have gotten very badly scalded!! dont EVER pour water into a hot engine!! (A) it hits the hot metal inside and turns to steam! this causes pressure and the hot steam comes back out of the hole like a kettle spout! (B) it causes the hot metal to contract (shrink) suddenly and may well have cracked it..
Did you know you have to bleed all the air out when you refill with coolant? You don't mention it.. Refill the car with coolant and make sure you get all the air out of the system before you make any more attempts to start it..
What happens when you turn the key? does the engine turn over? any unusual noises? a more accurate detailed desciption of exactly what happens when you turn the key would be a big help.

Post by **RichardW** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:09

Hi lee,
Welcome to the forum - sorry it looks like a serious one...
>I noticed that the heater was blowing cold air into the car instaed of hot, and there was also some water >coming through the vents.
That sounds like your heater matrix has gone, losing the coolant - is the carpet in the passenger foot well wet?
>I have since found out that my next action was a BIG mistake -- I filled the well back up without >letting the car cool down first.
That in itself is not such a bad thing to do - what you sould have done was bleed the system - eg get the air out.
>I left the car to cool for 3 hours, and kept trying to start it, to no avail.
That sounds like you have overheated the engine and blown the headgasket, and now have no compression - does it sound like it's turning over too easily / fast?
Is it repairable? Yes, but.... How handy are you with the spanners? Head gasket is going to cost £300-£400 if you pay someone else, double that if you have really cooked it and need a new / recon head. If the matrix has gone (more investigation will be required there!) then you are looking at another £200 - £300 to change it. So you are looking at possibly the best part of a grand [:(] This amount of money will buy a tidy 'new' ZX... If you are handy with the spanners you're looking at maybe 2 days work to fix it, and between £150 and £500 in parts depending on the state of the head. Unless it's in very good nick with low mileage, I think it's sadly probably scrap and you should start looking for another one.

leegre · Post by **leegre** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:14

I didn't know to bleed the engine before filling up the coolant. How would I go about doing that???
>>What happens when you turn the key? does the engine turn over? any unusual noises?
It sounds like it is trying to start, but like the engine is not "catching" somehow, just like it is spinning freely without actually turning over. It's not chugging in any way. It also sounds like there waybe some water in the engine, when trying to turn it over.
Somebody mentioned that the head gasket may have blown.
Could this be true??

leegre · Post by **leegre** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:20

>That sounds like your heater matrix has gone, losing the coolant - is the carpet in the >passenger foot well wet?
Yes that was one of the first signs that made me look under the bonnet!
>That sounds like you have overheated the engine and blown the headgasket, and now have >no compression - does it sound like it's turning over too easily / fast?
Yes exactly that!
>Is it repairable? Yes, but.... How handy are you with the spanners? Head gasket is going >to cost £300-£400 if you pay someone else, double that if you have really cooked it
I know quite a few people who are handy with spanners, and the symptoms / diagnosis you have given seems to have hit the nail right on the head (gasket! hehe).
thanks a lot for that!!!

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:26

Hi Lee,
I'm not too up on ZX mechanicals, but when you say "lost power" do you mean the engine suddenly ceased firing? Or was there a sense of "stiffening up". If the latter, this possibly indicates engine seizure due to serious overheating (you don't mention at any point an abnormal temperature guage reading) but this doesn't normally occur as a result of boiling - more often a lean mixture. When you checked the water level, was it only the header tank (if a ZX has one!) that was empty? How much water was required to refill? If it was only the header tank, I wouldn't have thought that this amount of cold water would have a serious effect. Perhaps you will need to do a compression test to check the head gasket/cylinder head condition.
Good luck.

leegre · Post by **leegre** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:41

Johnno,
It was more like engine seizure. The temp did get to over 100 degrees, I forgot to mention that. I had to put lots of water in, probably about 2 litres or so.
I think that the compression has gone, and I seriously need to sort it out. I'm rubbish without my car!!! [:(]

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 02 Mar 2004, 19:50

Lee, doesn't sound good. Serendipitously, I was just checking our work intranet "for sale" noticeboard (like I have nothing else to do[:p]), and there is a chap working in our office in Reading who has an L reg ZX 1.9 engine for sale. I just telephoned him and the engine is in the car (car had rear shunt - write-off), still driveable. 68,000mls with service history. He's open to offers. If you are within cooee of the area, let me know and I'll put you in touch. Might be a cheaper option than repair.

James.UK · Post by **James.UK** » 02 Mar 2004, 20:25

Hmm, if the rad cap was not on, then there would have been no pressure build up? so why would the matrix blow? I thought the ingress of water was more likely to be via steam/spray being sucked in from under the bonnet? Not possible?
Having just topped up without bleeding, then driven a 100 miles, then that prob did crack the head, but why didn't you notice the smell Lee? when an egine gets that hot it stinks? And in my experience even if the head has gone most engines will still run? Sounds ominously like a full blown engine seizure to me.. [:(!] [V]
PS. I think header tanks were fitted to the ZX when the grille was re-styled early 94 ish? M reg?? My 93 K reg doesn't have one.

leegre · Post by **leegre** » 02 Mar 2004, 20:35

>Having just topped up without bleeding, then that prob did crack the >head, but why didn't you notice the smell Lee? an egine that hot >stinks?
I thought I smelt it, but just figured that the smell was from having run the coolant dry / or the water in the foot well.
>And in my experience even if the head has gone most engines will >still run? Sounds ominously like a full blown engine seizure to >me..
The engine ran for about 100+ miles after I refilled the coolant. I hope it is just the head gasket and not a full engine seizure.

TomH · Post by **TomH** » 02 Mar 2004, 21:35

what is a header tank?
mine (94m, old bonnet) has a tank to the side of the radiator to check the level... though I can't actually see because its dirty! I think its quite low. Don't know how old the coolant is, so should I fill up (easier option for me as I know f-all about it!) or change it completely?
oh yeah, and does overfilling cause this matrix failure then?

James.UK · Post by **James.UK** » 02 Mar 2004, 22:43

Hi lee, I think it was your aborted return journey that caused the damage.
>>A couple of days later, before starting back on the return journey I noticed that the heater was blowing cold air into the car instaed of hot, and there was also some water coming through the vents.<<
At this point I'm not sure you had done too much damage. And because its hard to see the vents down by your feet I assumed you meant dash vents as well? with no rad cap on your heater fan would be drawing in lots of steam from under the bonnet?
Bleeding:- if you just pour water into your car you will almost certainly create air locks, think of it this way.. if you take the lid off a jam jar and push it into a bucket of water open end down it wont fill with water? a similar sort of thing happens when you just add water to an empty engine, so to aviod this they put lil bleed valves in places where air pockets may occur, these can be opened allowing the air to escape, just as if you made a small hole in the bottom of your jam jar, the jar would fill with water untill all the air bubbles escaped.
There are several very good 'threads' on this forum that go into great detail as to what proceedure you need to follow when bleeding your ZX diesel. Read them, and even better, print them off and stick them in a book for future reference. [:D]
Tom.. >>what is a header tank? mine (94m, old bonnet) has a tank to the side of the radiator to check the level... though I can't actually see because its dirty! I think its quite low. <<
Yes that IS a header tank. There is no point in marking the correct levels on it if you can't see them? Try cleaning it?
>>oh yeah, and does overfilling cause this matrix failure then?<<
No it doesn't, any excess water should be harmlessly dumped via the overflo pipe when the engine warms up.. Bear in mind that just adding water reduces the antifreeze level and may cause probs in this cold weather? better to top up with antifreeze, or at least a 50-50 mix..