205 raid - 1.9td vs 1.9d

[xsaras4ever]

Hello to all.

Thinking of doing the 205 raid sometime in the future - long term plan though.

However - it gives us the excuse to buy another cheap 205 and play with it.

All cars competing have to have a valid Controle Technique (MoT) - so it would have to look stock under the bonnet.

We have a 1.7d that we use every day (called Sticky Snot - coz its got 306 vented front disks with the bigger calipers and also the 306 larger wheels and tyres). We also have a 1.7td which goes like hell (called Petite Monstre - Little Monster)

So to the question....

We feel that using our 205td would be a risk - using a turbo car with no intercooler in the heat of the desert................
Also , we don't want to modify it to a point where it is too far away from original.

Anything really to tilt the balance to allow us to buy another 205.

So if we got a 205 and allowed it to look like stock under the bonnet - we could still fit a 1.9d (xud9) or is it worth it to fit the 1.9td but run it as normally aspirated - how much stronger an engine is it and in NA form would it give a little more power than the 1.9d ?

Sorry to ramble a bit

BTW : a few years ago one of you said you had a rebuilt 1.9td engine lying around - can't remember who though..

Also , has anyone on the forum already done the raid ?

[Oldpug]

Many years ago I built 205GTi rally cars and a 309 to drive from London to India.
My advice for an event like this would be keep everything simple,standard,tough and reliable.Take the whole car apart and make sure it does not fall apart in the desert. Use the 1.7D,a turbo generates a lot of heat.Make sure the engine is spot on,cambelt,etc etc.You do not want power and speed just reliability. Then concentrate on the cooling system and suspension.
I`m not sure about the rules of this event? but it would be a good idea to fit the large twin fan radiator from a turbo model. Bilstein shocks all round with HD front springs and raise the rear torsion bar ride height.
Under body protection is very important. A good sump guard and fuel tank guard together with Aeroquip brake and fuel lines.Your 306 wheels are a good idea and fit a set of "bomb proof" van tyres.
May I suggest you read up on competitors experiences on past events,also visit the endurance rally association`s web site that gives advice on building cars for these events. Good luck.

[oscar]

Turbo and non turbo engines are different as the turbo ones have lower compression the one thats close is the low boost types but generally run some other differences.
Also the forced induction engines have an oil cooler and many atmospherics don't.
Best way to run an intercooler is air to water it can be built into the rad the air passes through at bottom of radiator where water is cooler same way as marinised engines on boats do.
It's a far stabler enviroment to air to air as thats dependant on air flow through inter cooler rad so slow speed leads to issues as air density is less the higher temps go
Every Deg it goes up is x amount of BHP lost

you could get a custom rad made for it with the bits you need which would sit in same place
Also if it hasn't got one an oil cooler would prolong engine life!

[xsaras4ever]

Hello again to all and thank you for the posts.

Well , so far we have bought the car ( a 1.7d 3 door). Its a runner and the body is straight and we paid 140euros for it.
We have also bought a rollcage.

Then we bought a 205td with a seized engine so we could use the front subframe and suspension - but - like all these things - it has proved just too nice to break for bits. Photos coming soon.

We have been offered a running Rover 218 SD (normally aspirated) for free. We presume that the engine is the same as the standard XUD7 as in our 205 ? Is there many differences in the block and head between the 1.7 and the 1.7td ?

[CitroJim]

I once had a 205TD and it went like hell in the night I just can't imagine what a 1.9TD 205 would go like... It would be mental

Go for it!

[Harlequin]

Doesn't the 1.9TD have the option for a top mounted intercooler? I do remember my old 306 TD having that

[CitroJim]

Doesn't the 1.9TD have the option for a top mounted intercooler? I do remember my old 306 TD having that

It does but accommodating one under a 205 bonnet would be a bit tight... Maybe with the early auto bonnet with the 'power bulge' in it might give enough room...

Even sans intercooler a 1.9TD would be scary in a 205!

[Harlequin]

didn't they make a TD version of the 205 anyway? STDT?

[xsaras4ever]

Hello again.
We have a 205TD that we use most days, and its super fun. Yes Jim , it does go like a bat out of hell.

A while back we were offered a complete xsara 1.9td for free and we toyed with the idea of putting the engine from that into the 205.

However, we were so pleased with the 1.7td that we shelved the idea and then the offer evaporated.

Our son advised us not to do it anyway. Now , we might be wrong but from what we understand (as he explained it to us) the 205td feels really snappy and fast BECAUSE it has no intercooler. Its is because the air has a shorter route of pipework to pass through before it gets to the turbo. He also advised us to not bother getting some fancier air pipes unless they are super-good quality, as some pipe can decrease in volume as the turbo sucks. So in short, no intercooler and good condition original pipework leads to a faster feeling 205 !!!

AS for the RAID car, we are following OLDPUG's advice and keeping it simple - no turbo. Plus the front subframe and suspension from a 205TD, also the rad and twin fan setup.

Apparently it is a good idea to put some Renault 21 parts into the rear alxe setup - but we havn't investigated that yet.

On our daily runaround we are running the wheels and tyres (175x70x13) from a 306, and also the front shocks and springs along with the vented disks and larger callipers from the 306 too.

Braking is very good, the car rides higher but the suspension is too hard.

[CitroJim]

didn't they make a TD version of the 205 anyway? STDT?

Yes, it was what I had but it had no intercooler...

[Harlequin]

NA would be the way to go - I had a lightbulb moment and remember my TD with the top intercooler, it got very very hot as airflow was non existant

[CitroJim]

NA would be the way to go - I had a lightbulb moment and remember my TD with the top intercooler, it got very very hot as airflow was non existant

Oh yes, I had a 405TD with top intercooler... Get stuck in traffic and the heatsoak into the intercooler really killed the power until it cooled off again!

[oscar]

Citroens have the inter cooler in the rad for that reason as water to air is far more stable than air to air.
Ultimate power comes from bigger airways but at the cost of more lag till turbo spools up enough to over come the air depression in system.

But an intercooler well a decent one lessens the the chance of induction damage with likes of pinking for one as each degree of lower temps is an increase of power as the lower the air temp the denser it is.
Why a custom rad is better as can have intercooler built into one end and oil cooler other that way can run more boost if want to.

[xsaras4ever]

Hello to all.
Our 140euros car has now passed its Controle Technique and is insured and used a little bit each week.

We have recently fitted the front subframe with the complete suspension and brakes from a 205td. Easy enough job but the gearlever is badly positioned, touching the handbrake when put in reverse. Will have to investigate.

The flexible brake pipes for the 205td have different routing , they cannot pass behind the suspension strut as the tie-bar for the anti-rollbar is there. We had to remove the tabs for the flexibles and re-weld them 90-degrees different to pass the flexible around the outside of the suspension strut.