Hi folks,
Started on trying to get the injectors out today, to find out why my XM is running so rough, and removed the upper air intake manifold.
I was suprised how much oil is smeared around in there, is this normal..? Where does this come from? Is there a crankase breather hooked in somewhere..? Also the air intake is tiny, I'm suprised the engine isn't starved of air.
The intercooler is also tiny, I'm a bit suprised the system works at all, compared with the thumping great intercooler mounted on my Pug 1.8 TD. (Maybe that's why my Peugeot is miles quicker than the XM even when it appears to be working). Oh, and the injector leak tubes all shattered when I pulled them a bit, I thought these were supposed to be flexible..?
Any comments on the oil, or air intake mods for the 2.1 XM TD?
cheers
Russell [?][?]
Air intake manifold 2.1 XM TD
Moderator: RichardW
Quite some oil may find it's way to the intake - from the crankcase sump/vent fume hoses connected to air filter box.
Usually the air filter is soaked with engine oil from this breather system.
The 2.1TD lump may have a smaller intercooler as it's an earlier construction than the Peaug 1.8TD you have.
Can't remember the 2.1TD turbo charge pressure - but would believe it's 0.8bar. The fact that a diesel is feded with pressurised air from a turbo means it does not need large dia air intake - as the normally aspirated suction diesels.
The injector's leak off hoses are originally rubber made - known to detoriate to a state where they literally may rattle to dust - because of the diesel fuel breaking down the rubber.
Usually the air filter is soaked with engine oil from this breather system.
The 2.1TD lump may have a smaller intercooler as it's an earlier construction than the Peaug 1.8TD you have.
Can't remember the 2.1TD turbo charge pressure - but would believe it's 0.8bar. The fact that a diesel is feded with pressurised air from a turbo means it does not need large dia air intake - as the normally aspirated suction diesels.
The injector's leak off hoses are originally rubber made - known to detoriate to a state where they literally may rattle to dust - because of the diesel fuel breaking down the rubber.
I once took off the upper inlet manifold on my 406 2.1TD (same engine) and it was caked in oil. I spoke to a Lucas technician and he claimed it was because of the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve pumping exhaust gases back into the engine. He unplugged the valve, naughty I know, cleaned the manifold and the car runs better. He cliamed that on some cars eg Mondeo and Vectra diesels this was quite a problem.
Just my thoughts...
Just my thoughts...
My 1992 2.1 XM (110,000 miles) also has oil around the inside of the inlet manifold. Unless you are having to regularly top up the oil, don't worry about it. I am also going to disable the EGR valve as these tend to cause more problems than they solve. The intercooler on the 2.1 is an air to air type hence the size. These are not as efficient as a liquid to air so they are made large to compensate. Air being sucked in through fuel pipes, filter housing and primer pump will make the car run badly if at all. With the engine running can you hear a sharp knocking noise from the injectors? An injector that's on the way out makes a characteristic knock. If the pipe union leading to a noisy injector is slightly loosened (Extreme caution as fuel is under huge pressure!) and the knock disappears then you have a worn injector. All things being equal if this is the case change all four.
Still not had a chance to get the injectors out yet but I'm hopeful with your collective prognosis. When it was running rough, it did sound horrible, not sure about knocking, as in tink tink tink, but I did wonder if bottom end bearings had gone as it sounded growly and thump, thump, thump [B)] Even so, I don't think anything horribly mechanical has happenned to it, yet but we shall soon see.
I'll see if I can pop back tommorrow at lunchtime and lever the injectors out.
Thanks
Russell [|)]
I'll see if I can pop back tommorrow at lunchtime and lever the injectors out.
Thanks
Russell [|)]
I wouldn't condemm your main/big end bearings yet until you can get the engine idling/running correctly. A diesel that is idling too slowly and almost stalling does make a sound like a worn out bottom end. I am assuming your car's mileage is average and has been serviced regularly?.
Early 2.1 TD's had a purely mechanical control over the diesel pump. No ECU control. The only 'electronic' component being the solenoid stop valve. Only the Lucas/Bosch EPIC system has ECU electronic control as fitted to later XM's Xantia's and the 2.5 diesel. As a gut feeling I would still guess your running problems are air leaks into the fuel system and not mechanical failure or badly worn pump or injectors.
Go for the simplest thing first...
Unless of course your car has done starship mileage!. Your symptoms are the same as those I experienced shortly after I bought my 1992 2.1 XM. Even though injectors can be past their best around the 80,000 mile mark they generally plod on past this mileage. My XM has done 110,000 miles with full history and past its last MOT in January with the EGR valve disconnected. In fact the emissions were text book (according to tester) However I don't think your problem is related to the EGR component unless the upper inlet manifold is blocked full of oily black gunk.
To check for air in the fuel lines, patch in some clear plastic tube after the filter housing. If you see air bubbles in the fuel this will make the engine a pig to start and run smoothly.
Good luck.
Doc
Early 2.1 TD's had a purely mechanical control over the diesel pump. No ECU control. The only 'electronic' component being the solenoid stop valve. Only the Lucas/Bosch EPIC system has ECU electronic control as fitted to later XM's Xantia's and the 2.5 diesel. As a gut feeling I would still guess your running problems are air leaks into the fuel system and not mechanical failure or badly worn pump or injectors.
Go for the simplest thing first...
Unless of course your car has done starship mileage!. Your symptoms are the same as those I experienced shortly after I bought my 1992 2.1 XM. Even though injectors can be past their best around the 80,000 mile mark they generally plod on past this mileage. My XM has done 110,000 miles with full history and past its last MOT in January with the EGR valve disconnected. In fact the emissions were text book (according to tester) However I don't think your problem is related to the EGR component unless the upper inlet manifold is blocked full of oily black gunk.
To check for air in the fuel lines, patch in some clear plastic tube after the filter housing. If you see air bubbles in the fuel this will make the engine a pig to start and run smoothly.
Good luck.
Doc
Hi Doc,
well, you are right on the money..[:)]
Mind you, I don't really think it's the big ends or major mechanical catastrophe, it just sounds very nasty.
I took the injectors out at lunchtime, and tested them at a local garage. They are supposed to release at 170 bar, and 3 out of four did. One of them could sometimes be persuaded to not to shut down on a falling pressure cycle under 170 bar, and could be fooled into dribbling a limp squirt down to 150 bar when it shut off, but at normal operating pressure it did seem to be fine. The professional opinion was that the injectors were not bad at all, considering they may have done 160K. So, it aint them. Though this is no real guide to their performance when warm.
I'll peer in the holes and see how the glow plugs do, but it ins't these either, as last time the car was still running very rough even well after 15 minutes, though it would just about idle by then, well past glow plug on time. Be nice to time them though, and see their ruddy glow.
While I'm deep in injector territory, are there other tests to do while they are out..? Compression test, maybe? And what is this EGR removal thing about? If it keeps the oily rubbish out of the air intake manifold because I'm all for that? [;)]
Ok, so next, it's the clear plastic tube to look for air bubbles in the fuel on the way to the pump. Would air bubbles cause all these symptoms, difficult starting, appalling performance, blue-ish smoke when engine warm?
Does this model 2.1 TD have an fuel pump advance switch for cold starting and where would I find this? Again I sort of assume it can't be this, as the car is still not running right after 15 minutes when the car is at normal temperature.
I'll change the fuel filter at the same time as fitting clear tubing and see if this sorts the sucker out. Not sure I can do this before the week end, but as ever, I will keep you guys posted.
cheers
Russell [:)]
well, you are right on the money..[:)]
Mind you, I don't really think it's the big ends or major mechanical catastrophe, it just sounds very nasty.
I took the injectors out at lunchtime, and tested them at a local garage. They are supposed to release at 170 bar, and 3 out of four did. One of them could sometimes be persuaded to not to shut down on a falling pressure cycle under 170 bar, and could be fooled into dribbling a limp squirt down to 150 bar when it shut off, but at normal operating pressure it did seem to be fine. The professional opinion was that the injectors were not bad at all, considering they may have done 160K. So, it aint them. Though this is no real guide to their performance when warm.
I'll peer in the holes and see how the glow plugs do, but it ins't these either, as last time the car was still running very rough even well after 15 minutes, though it would just about idle by then, well past glow plug on time. Be nice to time them though, and see their ruddy glow.
While I'm deep in injector territory, are there other tests to do while they are out..? Compression test, maybe? And what is this EGR removal thing about? If it keeps the oily rubbish out of the air intake manifold because I'm all for that? [;)]
Ok, so next, it's the clear plastic tube to look for air bubbles in the fuel on the way to the pump. Would air bubbles cause all these symptoms, difficult starting, appalling performance, blue-ish smoke when engine warm?
Does this model 2.1 TD have an fuel pump advance switch for cold starting and where would I find this? Again I sort of assume it can't be this, as the car is still not running right after 15 minutes when the car is at normal temperature.
I'll change the fuel filter at the same time as fitting clear tubing and see if this sorts the sucker out. Not sure I can do this before the week end, but as ever, I will keep you guys posted.
cheers
Russell [:)]
Arouins about the middle of the engine, you will find a Bowden cable appearing from somewhere (the waxstat) and disappearing to the back of the injector pump. Check that the lever on the injector pump end moves from when the engine is cold to when it is hot. This is a classic PSA(bosch) problem.
//NiSk
//NiSk
I think an important key to whatever this problem is, is that it happenned suddenly. Usually mechanical faults (apart from catastrophic failure) occur slowly as a result of wear, misalignment, rubbing, poor lubrication and so on.
On the XM 2.1 TD, the only electrical part is the stop solonoid. I suppose this could have failed in some interesting half open state, but it's pretty unlikely.
The only other things likely are something mechanical breaking, or a pipe fracturing, or something. Or the fuel filter suddenly clogging up, which I guess is a possibility.
I don't think the waxstat could give me the symptoms I've got, but next time I get it running, I'll see if the waxstat cable appears to be functioning correctly.
cheers
Russell [|)]
On the XM 2.1 TD, the only electrical part is the stop solonoid. I suppose this could have failed in some interesting half open state, but it's pretty unlikely.
The only other things likely are something mechanical breaking, or a pipe fracturing, or something. Or the fuel filter suddenly clogging up, which I guess is a possibility.
I don't think the waxstat could give me the symptoms I've got, but next time I get it running, I'll see if the waxstat cable appears to be functioning correctly.
cheers
Russell [|)]