1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by MikeT » 21 May 2018, 21:35

Is your engine like this?

Image

The intake pipe shouldn't blow off the turbo (it's negative pressure) but if it wasn't fitted properly, could have slipped off.
Note the turbo outlet (positive pressure) pipe is bolted on and would have to be broken to detach.

The breather outlet is connected to the white part of the intake pipe shown clipped into the breather cover.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 22 May 2018, 07:22

Thanks MikeT, that picture explains a lot. My dipstick ends where the flat bit with the marks starts on the left of your picture (i.e. at the maximum level) and I've filled way beyond that now :shock: I don't think draining the oil so it's within the normal range is going to solve this, but could it have caused it if the previous owner has run it for a long time with too much oil?
I just checked my handbook and the oil capacity in my 1.6hdi is a mere 3.9L
I thought it was 3.75, though could have misremembered/looked at the wrong variant spec, but conventional wisdom seems to be that that's to take it to the bottom of the dipstick, and to prevent the oil from coking up quickly and clogging things up, they should be filled to the maximum mark which is another litre.

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You mentioned cleaning out the intercooler, how much oil was in it out of interest?
I didn't measure it and obviously I had to heavily dilute it to get it all out of the channels, but there was a significant puddle when I took the bottom end off.

Over-filling aside, apart from the turbo bearing, venting of pressure in the crankcase seems likely to be the cause. Yes, that's my engine Mike. I think the white clipped part of the breather was unclipped when I bought the car. I found the thread I mentioned before where a few people found the O-ring was causing a problem: http://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/307 ... on-107425/. Not having the right size O-ring to hand before a long trip, I sealed it up with RTV. After about 200 miles, I checked it and found the turbo air intake had come off. Tightened it back on as best I could with the screwdriver on my penknife (all I had). Back home 300 miles later, I found it off again. I've cleaned all the oil off the mating parts and REALLY tightened it on, but I haven't driven it since. Still don't think there should be that much pressure and a bit nervous about where that pressure might end up!

Any ideas for diagnosing/eliminating turbo bearing as the cause?
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by EDC5 » 22 May 2018, 09:54

leftfootleashed wrote:
22 May 2018, 07:22
Thanks MikeT, that picture explains a lot. My dipstick ends where the flat bit with the marks starts on the left of your picture (i.e. at the maximum level) and I've filled way beyond that now :shock: I don't think draining the oil so it's within the normal range is going to solve this, but could it have caused it if the previous owner has run it for a long time with too much oil?
I just checked my handbook and the oil capacity in my 1.6hdi is a mere 3.9L
I thought it was 3.75, though could have misremembered/looked at the wrong variant spec, but conventional wisdom seems to be that that's to take it to the bottom of the dipstick, and to prevent the oil from coking up quickly and clogging things up, they should be filled to the maximum mark which is another litre.

Code: Select all

You mentioned cleaning out the intercooler, how much oil was in it out of interest?
I didn't measure it and obviously I had to heavily dilute it to get it all out of the channels, but there was a significant puddle when I took the bottom end off.

Over-filling aside, apart from the turbo bearing, venting of pressure in the crankcase seems likely to be the cause. Yes, that's my engine Mike. I think the white clipped part of the breather was unclipped when I bought the car. I found the thread I mentioned before where a few people found the O-ring was causing a problem: http://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/307 ... on-107425/. Not having the right size O-ring to hand before a long trip, I sealed it up with RTV. After about 200 miles, I checked it and found the turbo air intake had come off. Tightened it back on as best I could with the screwdriver on my penknife (all I had). Back home 300 miles later, I found it off again. I've cleaned all the oil off the mating parts and REALLY tightened it on, but I haven't driven it since. Still don't think there should be that much pressure and a bit nervous about where that pressure might end up!

Any ideas for diagnosing/eliminating turbo bearing as the cause?



If you take the turbo air inlet pipe off and give the turbine shaft a wobble left/right, up/down and see if there is much movement.

Are you getting oil in the air feed pipe to the turbo? If this is the case then the oil is coming from the breather, if not then it must be the turbo leaking oil into the boost side.

You are right though, there shouldn't be any pressure on the air feed side of the turbo, there should be a slight vacuum if anything.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by MikeT » 22 May 2018, 14:16

When you overfill an engine with oil, it will cause the very problems you complained about in your first post.

First off, I would advise you get yourself a new dipstick, they're not expensive.
Drain and discard the oil & filter and replace with correct type and quantity.
You may have to flush out the air intake too, especially the intercooler as it can pool and collect.

As you're aware, these little engines have a reputation of lunching turbos but the cause is down to poor oil quality.
It is essential on these small-sumped, hot-running, efficient engines to keep the oil as clean as possible and topped up to the correct mark.... especially if it has a DPF which requires regular regenerations which further contaminates the oil.

A search of this forum should bring up a wealth of the intricacies and problems with these engines if you're interested so I won't try and cover it all here but overfilling is a bad idea for any engine, even more so a diesel!
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 22 May 2018, 17:53

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Are you getting oil in the air feed pipe to the turbo? If this is the case then the oil is coming from the breather, if not then it must be the turbo leaking oil into the boost side.
I thought this, since the turbo will surely push oil any oil leaking from the bearing out of the outlet, but EDC5 seems to disagree above. There's definitely oil in the intake anyway.
I checked the turbo for play in the bearings before and I couldn't detect any play, but will check again.

The overfilling is a bit :oops: I've warned other people about it before as well. In my defence, both my broken dipstick and electronic gauge are reading empty. I've ordered a new dipstick.

I refilled recently with Total Quartz Ineo ECS 5W30 which is specified to ACEA C2. I have another 5L of this and a filter, as my plan was to do another change in short order to clean out an engine of unknown cleanliness having addressed any possible injector issues, but to be honest, I found very little in the way of sludge in the sump and oil pickup gauzes, so I don't think it was too bad and I'm inclined to recycle this oil and run it for another couple of k, with the correct quantity. If I can solve this problem, then my aim is to run it on this correct oil grade, filled to the top dipstick mark and changed at 5k intervals, but at the moment it's an MOT failure as of January with the new test requirements, so I don't want to throw money at it hand over fist.

I guess flushing the intercooler and the rest of the pipework again is on the to-do list too :(
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by MikeT » 22 May 2018, 21:07

leftfootleashed wrote:
22 May 2018, 17:53
The overfilling is a bit :oops: I've warned other people about it before as well. In my defence, both my broken dipstick and electronic gauge are reading empty. I've ordered a new dipstick.

I refilled recently with Total Quartz Ineo ECS 5W30 which is specified to ACEA C2. I have another 5L of this and a filter, as my plan was to do another change in short order to clean out an engine of unknown cleanliness having addressed any possible injector issues, but to be honest, I found very little in the way of sludge in the sump and oil pickup gauzes, so I don't think it was too bad and I'm inclined to recycle this oil and run it for another couple of k, with the correct quantity. If I can solve this problem, then my aim is to run it on this correct oil grade, filled to the top dipstick mark and changed at 5k intervals, but at the moment it's an MOT failure as of January with the new test requirements, so I don't want to throw money at it hand over fist.


The guage on my car shows oil temperature, not quantity. There is an oil level sensor which reports via a brief message at key-on where the odometer is. It usually shows "OIL OK" if it's up to the max mark on the dipstick.

You have the correct grade of oil but I wouldn't re-use any of it, especially given the circumstances it's been used under and it's not that expensive (compare it to fuel per mile, for instance!).

Yes, the new mot rules are a worry but hopefully this work (and what you've already done so far) could very well cure the blue smoke issue.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 22 May 2018, 21:54

There is an oil level sensor which reports via a brief message at key-on where the odometer is.
That's the one I mean.
It usually shows "OIL OK" if it's up to the max mark on the dipstick.
Never noticed that. This car has always shown a row of small 'o's indicating low oil. Never noticed it in my previous car either, but my drive's on a slope and I always reverse in so I would rarely start it on the flat.
compare it to fuel per mile, for instance!
At £30's worth of oil for a 500 mile trip, it's getting close!
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by white exec » 22 May 2018, 22:07

Don't re-use drained-out oil, it really isn't worth it: one grain of grit can do a lot of damage if it gets into the oil pump.
Go by oil grade and spec; avoid the hyper-expensive stuff.
Hopefully the new dipstick won't be expensive, and will nail the issue of oil level once-and-for-all. Make sure you fill it and check it on level ground.
Petrol or paraffin will clean out an oil-coated intercooler or pipework - or use some hot water and bio washing liquid, for something much nicer to handle.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by Gibbo2286 » 23 May 2018, 10:25

white exec wrote:
22 May 2018, 22:07
Don't re-use drained-out oil, it really isn't worth it: one grain of grit can do a lot of damage if it gets into the oil pump.
Go by oil grade and spec; avoid the hyper-expensive stuff.
Hopefully the new dipstick won't be expensive, and will nail the issue of oil level once-and-for-all. Make sure you fill it and check it on level ground.
Petrol or paraffin will clean out an oil-coated intercooler or pipework - or use some hot water and bio washing liquid, for something much nicer to handle.


Stick to paraffin, petrol's damned dangerous for cleaning in the workshop.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 23 May 2018, 12:21

So this morning I drained the oil and put 4l back in (sorry, I don't buy the stuff about not using drained oil if it's new enough - other people have other opinions but there's no point arguing over it 8-) ). I've left it on the flat so I can check when the new dipstick arrives.

I took the bottom off the intercooler. This was the oil in the bottom:
Image
I checked the mileage and I've actually done about 800 miles since flushing it. Hard to say how much of that is newly arrived in the air intake, and how much might have still been in the intercooler or pipe from the turbo after I flushed it. I cleaned this out, blasted the heat exchanger through with some compressed air, but decided against flushing it thoroughly again at this point (incidentally, I tend to use brake cleaner for this sort of thing - it evaporates much more fully and I don't fancy petrol hanging about it in the intercooler. Though as Gibbo says, petrol as a workshop solvent isn't a great idea. I sometimes use diesel instead, but it's pretty nasty).

I also cleaned out the pipe from the turbo with paper towel. There didn't seem to be much oil in there, but I noticed the u-shaped section on it, which sits downward and is presumably to catch oil/other contamination. Flushed it with a bit of brake cleaner, but still not much obvious oil.

So to the turbo itself

On closer inspection, it does seem there's not insignificant play in the bearings :(

I managed to take this video with my phone as I moved the end of the impellor shaft with a scriber: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p5zhkh8kqk092 ... 6.mp4?dl=0
Tell me if you think that's normal but I think that's too much play for something doing at least 25kprm.

I'm guessing given this engine's reputation, buying a used turbo is a waste of time and money. Any recommendations for an aftermarket turbo? (Or go on, entertain me, how much is a genuine replacement turbo from Citroen? :lol: ) I'm quite happy to by a replacement core and rebuild it, as long as the replacement core is good quality. Again, recommendations appreciated.

The mystery then, is how it's ended up like this. The turbo was replaced at Citroen dealer in April 2012 at 57k miles (i.e. 6 years and 45k miles ago). At the same time, the engine was "double flushed" and the sump, oil pickup and pipes replaced (at a total cost of £2220 - yes there are four numbers there :shock: ). Is it normal for a turbo to wear out after this time/mileage? I know turbo failure is common on these, but there's no evidence of excessive carbon in the oil, in the sump, pickups, turbo oil feed, strainer (it's got the new style higher flow strainer in the turbo oil feed banjo bolt, probably replaced in 2012). How long should a turbo last?
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by MikeT » 23 May 2018, 12:55

Sorry I missed the opportunity last night to suggest you syphon off the excess to save wasting the new-ish oil. How much did you drain in total, out of interest?
Considering capacity is stated as 3.9L (or 3.75L) I think you'll find you've overfilled it again, especially if you didn't replace the oil filter.

There will be some turbo shaft sideways freeplay as the bearings float in oil (and I see no contact witness marks on the housing), but there should be zero back and forth movement of the shaft.

Very good video recording, btw!
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 23 May 2018, 13:15

About 5.5l :oops:

I've read quite a few posts (which I can't seem to find now of course) recommending filling right up to the maximum mark, which is a litre or so more than the stated capacity. I'll check for sure when I get the new dipstick. I won't be using the car till then anyway.

Hmmm, I didn't really check back and forth (axial) movement. Might have to get back in there. Meanwhile, I'll post the video on another thread and see what the hive mind thinks.

Thanks, my phone camera's generally pretty crap, so it took a bit of messing about to get a clear shot, but I was surprised how well it turned out!
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by white exec » 23 May 2018, 13:27

I can't understand why you filled the sump before fitting the replacement dipstick.
Also, of you want to avoid volatile solvents in the workshop (like petrol), then quantities of brake cleaner must go on the hazard list. That was the reason for also suggesting bio washing liquid and hot water. It's amazingly effective on dissolving oil - give it a try.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by leftfootleashed » 23 May 2018, 14:40

Because I needed to move the car after I'd drained it. I've measured the amount I put back in, and taken into account that there will still be some in the filter, etc. so I don't see a problem.

I take your point about brake cleaner being just as volatile as petrol, but it comes in an aerosol can so easier to dispense in safe quantities. I've tried washing up liquid on dirty, greasy bike parts before and it's next to useless compared to solvents, but I guess it would be more effective with liquid oil. I'll try that next time, if there is a next time.
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Re: 1.6 HDi (Citroen Berlingo) Burning Oil - Oil in Air Intake

Post by white exec » 23 May 2018, 14:56

Not washing-up liquid, but bio clothes washing liquid (like Ariel, Bold . . .) which contains enzymes. It's these that have the ability to dissolve oil, grease and dirt, and are activated by the addition of water.

You can even use it to get a really clean paintbrush that has been used in oil-based paint or even Hammerite. First, dibble the brush in a tiny amount of appropriate solvent (turps, Hammerite thinner...) and then dibble the brush around in some of the bio liquid, and then add some warm water to finish off. It does an extrordinarily good job, and ok for a workshop sink. For oily engine parts, nothing like as messy as degreasers like Gunk.
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