C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

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bobins
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins » 11 Jun 2018, 16:10

Lest we forget - Citroen has 'previous' when it comes to dodgy components and not wanting to admit to them. Remember how it took the high profile intervention of BBC Watchdog to get Citroen to finally capitulate and offer 80% contributions to the repair/replacement of Picasso rear suspension airbags which were failing left, right, and centre !
https://www.uk-car-discount.co.uk/news/ ... suspension
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/citroen/c4 ... ion-issues

lkraav
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by lkraav » 11 Jun 2018, 16:12

These guys doing a "double seal arrangement" modification, are already known here? http://www.powerracksdirect.co.uk/Citroen-C5

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bobins
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins » 11 Jun 2018, 16:16

Yep - but they only supply to 'trade' so you need a friendly garage to get one on your behalf if you're going to fit it yourself :(

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Stickyfinger
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Stickyfinger » 11 Jun 2018, 16:46

When I get mine back here on Friday, the weekend will be spent making a protective cap and sleeve that includes a "run off" cover. Model Making skills to the rescue !

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Stickyfinger » 11 Jun 2018, 16:57

Sorry mate, a chap on Facebook from Lithuania posted his work. Eg not just UK cars suffer.

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white exec
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by white exec » 11 Jun 2018, 17:04

The double seal arrangement would likely slow up rusting of the crucial OE seal area, but could still fail if water/weather manages to get through. It doesn't eliminate the problem, just pushes it upwards.

Fitting a bellows gaiter over a greased (or otherwise waterproofed) shaft does seem the way to go with the present rust-prone steel. No weather = no rust, surely?

What did PSA do next rack-wise, after the C5X7, and has this cured the issue?

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bobins
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins » 11 Jun 2018, 17:10

Looks like the Lithuanian chap simply turned down the shaft on a lathe. Wonder what oil seal sizes he's using to seal the new shaft diameter ?

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Stickyfinger
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by Stickyfinger » 11 Jun 2018, 17:44

Don't know, but a stainless "speedi-seal" seems a good method for these.

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white exec
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by white exec » 11 Jun 2018, 18:44

Marc,
Do you have any pictures of the fitted overboot which was done successfully to the replacement rack?
(re: your post of 1 June)

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GiveMeABreak
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Jun 2018, 19:20

Sorry Chris they had it all done, just as I was whizzing down to them armed full of Marine grease and a Tie Rack boot! So I had discussed it earier and they had already come up with the same solution and gone ahead and did it, so probably very much like Stu's, although mine is not sealed at the bottom they tell me (which I prefer) in order to ensure anything in there can escape. But the primary function I am concerned about is keeping any water from the road / pressure washers away from the shaft.

They did tell me it managed to go over the one in the footwell so definitely protected from the top and sides [-o<

There is also a big distinction to be made I've found from doing the research between refurbished / reconditioned and re-manufactured - so need to be careful as to what each has had done - and in the guarantees on offer - anything from 12 to 36 months so far I've seen.

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white exec
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by white exec » 11 Jun 2018, 19:33

GiveMeABreak wrote:
11 Jun 2018, 19:20
They did tell me it managed to go over the one in the footwell so definitely protected from the top and sides [-o<
So the two gaiters meet up at floor level, and interlock? Sounds a good arrangement.

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bobins
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins » 11 Jun 2018, 19:34

I couldn't resist any longer - so I set about taking my old spare leaking rack apart to see what I could see. And the result is... inconclusive.
housing 1.jpg
Rack housing - own work
After a bit of work the housing came off the shaft. The black ring sitting on the stud is a somewhat useless rubber dust ring that sits uppermost in the housing - this is the rubber seal you can see when you look down at the shaft on a steering rack.
housing 4.jpg
Rack housing seals - own work
Above you can see the single oil seal (a bit mangled) in the housing, and beneath that there's a thin bushing/bearing sitting in a bigger bushing - clearer on the next picture....
housing 2.jpg
Rack housing inside - own work
Looking from inside the housing you can see the thin bushing sitting in its larger ring.
See also....
housing 3.jpg
Rack housing inside 2 - own work
The problem i've got now is how to remove the oil seal. The bushing and ring are in fairly solid and all the time they're sitting there the oil seal can't be removed. I'm presuming they're either threaded in or it's just an interference fit. The three pilot holes around the circumference lead me to think you need a three pronged tool to turn them to remove them.

Although it would be possible to fit a Speedi-Sleeve, unless you can get the old oil seal out to fit a new one, fitting a Speedi-Sleeve might prove a short term fix.

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white exec
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by white exec » 11 Jun 2018, 19:51

If I were faced with this, and fitting a rust-free refurbished/exchange rack, I think I would remove and smooth off the superfluous cast lump, and fit a gaiter - snugly clipped to both the (now circular) rack snout, and the interior floor gaiter.

Put me right if I'm wrong, but premature failure of these racks seems to be solely down to the corrosion/seal-damage issue, so, if this is prevented, an owner is unlikely ever to have to replace a rack again. This would sidestep the worry about a de-lumped rack not being acceptable on a future exchange.

Open bottom end for the added gaiter? Not sure about this. If open (even a slight gap), there is the possibility of water ingress. Gaiters elsewhere (eg drive shafts) cope quite well in keeping weather out and grease in, and without open ends or drain tubes. And those are gaiters in constant flex, unlike this installation. (Drained gaiters, eg on hpn rear suspension, are an exception, because they have to cope with fluid exhaust and return.)

Getting a new (replacement) rack de-lumped through a Citroen dealer workshop would likely be difficult, but if done through an independent, or privately, should be straightforward enough.

If there's a means whereby a protective gaiter can be snugly fitted and clamped, with the lump still in place, that would be interesting.

PS
I suppose ZF wouldn't have a lump-less input casting available as a spare part for a different version? No, silly idea.

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bobins
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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by bobins » 11 Jun 2018, 19:57

I think that next time I have to replace my rack (a couple of years time ? :roll: ) then I'd go with the 'de-lump', but also paint the shaft, and then apply something like a semi-flexible underseal, and then cover it with a gaiter. And then park it in a hermetically sealed tent filled with dehumidified air. That should do it :wink: :lol:

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Re: C5 X7 Steering Rack - Again!

Post by GiveMeABreak » 11 Jun 2018, 20:06

I still think it’s that dodgy Japanese steel that was poor quality - too much sushi 🍣 in the mix and they’ve kept quiet about it. Let’s face it a lot of these racks are very similar across models so it can’t be the design, but the materials.