Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks? - NOW ALSO FAULT FINDING

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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

Citroen have replied.
Very prompt and polite, but useless generic info, obviously not even passed to the tech team for review;
Thank you for your email about getting a steering rack for a Citroën C2. I'm sorry you're having trouble finding a replacement part.

We're unable to provide any technical information direct however your local Citroën authorised dealership are there to support and offer you any assistance - should you need any technical advice or information.

As your looking for a part for a older model I'd recommend trying:

- Citroën Car Club
- vehicle dismantlers
- specialist suppliers

Sorry we couldn’t be of more help – best of luck with getting your girlfriends car back on the road.
Authorised dealers have never had the kind of info I was asking for - that would only ever have been available from the central tech team - and these days, as previously mentioned on here... You're lucky if a local dealer even has a proper spares department!

Does my head in that it's obvious (given this and problems with previous clutch booking) they have obviously written off providing any support for the c2 - a car that only went out of production 8.5 years ago!

I wonder if a technical query on an x7 would get the same response?
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by Stickyfinger »

Citroen Car Club for C2 help....LOL
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

This weekend I intend to attack the C2.

Marc (@GiveMeABreak) is it just the C5 service/diagnostic manual that you have access to, or can you also get info for the C2?

If so, could you please post up any pages that describe stripping down/overhauling the steering rack and any that relate to fault finding for steering being heavy one direction/light the other? (I don't have any fault codes from the car yet because I haven't successfully downloaded it yet - Lexia seems to keep hanging for some reason and the car goes into economy mode within about ten mins :x not had a chance to mess around and get past that yet).

Thanks
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

There won’t be anything about overhauling the racks Iain, as they are non serviceable parts in Citroen’s eyes, but I can provide you with removal procedures. As these may vary between models, please post or PM the VIN for the C2 in question as that will help eliminate the superfluous.

I will see if there is anything about the issues you have described, although on these they are electro pumps on the PS, so short of bleeding the system, it may be hard to pin down, unless the rack internals are shot.
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

Thanks, the removal instructions aren't really critical (I have Haynes and tbh, removal of the rack is only part of what I have to do - top mount, springs, clutch all in one go... So pretty much the whole mechanical front of the car is coming off/in bits anyway :rofl2: ) but would be useful regardless.

It's just the steering rack fault finding and overhaul guides I was particularly interested in though.

The rack is fully electric (motor directly on the rack) not driven by a hydraulic pump at all, so there is plenty to fault find (directions sensors, motor, wiring and independent ecu). What I did get out of lexia so far was that the steering ecu showed no faults logged, so unless it also relies on the com2000 and there's a problem there (or if I can get live data working and I can see something odd going on) then its is gonna be a back to basics fault finding job on the system and the Citroen guide will be particularly useful...

I will pm the vin to you though.
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

I've posted some info here - as from your post, the issue seems to be related to the Power Steering - so have a look at the torque sensor - is it possible that this may be reading the driver input incorrectly and so affecting the assistance in one direction? Having said that. if the Torque sensor is at fault - it should provide an error code - so check when you get your Lexia set up.

There is no bleeding of course on these electric units as they are all motor driven so no bleeding. If it's the motor playing up - then not a lot you can do really I suspect, short of replacing the rack. Only the ECU is replaceable and that is located under the battery bay somewhere.

Operating Principles:
  • The electric power steering assists the manoeuvring forces when the steering wheel is turned.
  • The assistance torque, provided by means of an electric motor, is transmitted to the rack pinion by a reduction gear.
  • The assistance torque is combined with the torque exerted on the steering wheel by the driver.
  • The force exerted on the steering wheel by the driver is transmitted to the steering rack and electrically to the electric power steering
  • ECU via the torque sensor.
  • The reducer transmits the electric motor assistance to the rack pinion.
C2 Power Steering Data
-Power Assisted Steering
Steering rack - gear23 teeth - 6 teeth
Number of turns of steering wheel (from lock to lock)3,18 turns with steering rack travel of 144 mm
Number of turns of steering wheel (from lock to lock)2,82 turns with steering rack travel of 128 mm
Inner angle of turn38° ( 60 Amp electric motor)
Inner angle of turn32°30’" ( 65 Amp electric motor)
Outer angle of turn32°24’" ( 60 Amp electric motor)
Outer angle of turn28°42’" ( 65 Amp electric motor)
Info on the pump itself:
Torque Sensor
The torque sensor is inserted on the steering shaft between the input shaft (steering wheel side) and the output shaft (rack pinion side).
It permits continuous measuring of the torque applied to the steering wheel by the driver.
C2 PS Motor.PNG
ReferenceDescription
ARack pinion side
BSteering wheel side
5Measuring coil fixed in relation to the steering column
6Reference coil fixed in relation to the steering column
7Input shaft on the steering wheel side (B)
8Torsion bar linking the input shaft (7) and the output shaft (12), allowing a relative movement between the two shafts of +/- 4,5°
9Detection ring solid with the input shaft (7) (steering wheel side)
10Detection ring solid with the input shaft (7) (steering wheel side)
11Detection ring solid with the output shaft (12) (rack pinion side)
12Output shaft on the rack pinion side (A)
Steering Rack
C2 Steering Rack PS.PNG
1 - Torque sensor signal
2 - Assistance motor
3 - Assistance motor supply connector
4 - Torque sensor signal connector

As for the Steering Rack removal, I'll post this separately
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

Thanks - very interesting, that helps shed some more light on the differences between the racks as well. So there's not only a difference in no. turns lock-lock, but also in the steering angle that is generated as result - I actually assumed that different number of turns still had the same degree of steering (different number of teeth on rack/pinion but same travel distance to give quick/slow rack) but that seems not to be the case!

I wonder what it means by 'inner angle of turn' 'outer angle of turn'? Does that mean left/right???
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

It's all to do with Ackermann's principles for steering - so the tyres don't slip.

Much easier to watch this brief video:

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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by myglaren »

Fush & Chups anybody?

It surprises me that dinky C2s and 3s would need PAS anyway.

It was a long time ago now but I always found the steering on my GS to be an absolute delight. Very light, accurate and responsive.
No assistance needed nor fitted.
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

C2 Rack Removal

Disconnect & Remove Battery
Preliminary operation
Note: Systematically replace the seal
C2 PS A.PNG
Disconnect: The connectors (2) & (1)
C2 PS B.PNG
Lift and support the vehicle with front wheels suspended.CAUTION: Place the front wheels in the straight on position. Lock the steering wheel in this position.
Remove the bolt (3). Disengage the steering cardan joint by pulling on part "" of the steering column (at "a"). Remove the front road wheels.
C2 PS C.PNG
Remove nuts (4) (Right and left side).
C2 PS D.PNG
Extract the steering ball-joints (5); Using tool [1] (Right and left side).
C2 PS E.PNG
Petrol engines - Remove screws (6).
C2 PS F.PNG
Diesel engines - Remove clip (7).
C2 PS G.PNG
Remove the nuts (8), (9) and (10). Fit the exhaust line on the rear crossmember.
C2 PS H.PNG
Remove: The nuts (11), The studs (12) (TORX recess), N.B.: Recover the toothed washers (13). Support the front subframe with a lifting tool. Remove screws (14). Lower the cradle (petrol engine, until contact with the exhaust line).
C2 PS I.PNG
Remove the steering mechanism (15) via the wheelarch.
C2 PS J.PNG
CAUTION: Do not carry the steering mechanism by the electric motor. Store the steering mechanism in a box.
Refitting
CAUTION : Always replace the bolts (14). Always fit new Nylstop nuts.

Refit:
  • The electric power steering mechanism (15) (By the wheel arch)
  • The toothed washers (13)
  • The studs (12) ; Tighten to 0,8 ± 0,1 daNm
  • Position the front subframe on the bodyshell.
Refit:
  • The bolts (14) ; Tighten to 10 ± 1 daN.m (Prior to RPO No. 12137)
  • The bolts (14) ; Tighten to 8 ± 1 daN.m (From RPO 12138)
  • The nuts (11) ; Tighten to 8 ± 0,8 daN.m
Petrol engines: Reinstall screws (6), Diesel engines: Refit the screws (10), (9) and (8) & Refit the clip (7).

Couple up: The steering swivel joints (5); Tighten to 3,5 ± 0,3 daNm.
Refit:
  • The steering cardan joint on the steering valve stem (check the presence of the safety clip)
  • The bolt (3) ; Tighten to 2,2 ± 0,2 daNm
  • The front wheels
  • Return the vehicle to its wheels.
Reconnect:
The connectors (1) & (2), Refit the battery.
Check Tracking

Important:
Timing - Straight-On Position of Steering Rack
C2 PS K.PNG
Preliminary operation - Raise and support the vehicle on a 2 -post lift.
Remove ( right hand side): The clips (1) & (2)
Remove the steering rack protection gaiter.

Timing
C2 PS L.PNG
Turn the steering wheel to left hand full lock.
Measure dimension X.
Turn the steering wheel to right hand full lock.
Measure dimension Y.
Calculate the dimension L = (Y - X) : 2.
Position the steering rack to dimension " L" (mid point of the rack).

Additional operation
Refit:
The protective gaiter, The clips (2) & (1) (new)
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

Oh right, it has a word missing! It means inner Wheel angle of turn. Outer Wheel angle of turn... That makes sense now! (None of which are actually governed/altered by the rack since that extends an equal amount in each direction - That's all to do with the fixed geometery of the suspension/steering linkage design).

Thanks for the removal/refit info.

As to why it would need power steering..?
Well modern cars have much fatter and lower profile tyres (these are 195x45) so much more resistance to turning, hence it will help a lot with parking and these cars are mean to be easy to use around town. Plus tbh, it's been standard 'expectated equipment' for so many years...
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by xantia_v6 »

You might try measuring the current draw with the wheel turned hard left and right. Maybe it will tell you that there is no assistance at all in one direction?
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by wurlycorner »

Got Lexia on it and (largely) all working today. I will do a Seperate post with general observations on what that threw up on the car and questions etc but... Specifically to the steering...
No faults logged.
Live data doesn't show anything odd - looks to be operating exactly the same in each direction :evil:
I will post a video later on showing the love data as I tested it. So still drawing a blank.

Marc, really hoping you can post up any further info on testing the system or fault finding this kind of symptom? And/or a wiring diagram for the system? (Haynes has nothing at all :roll: )

Thanks
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Didn’t know you wanted a wiring diagram Iain, I have a few requests for info on the go right this minute, so will try and get you the wiring diagram shortly.
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Re: Anyone know anything about C2 // C3 racks?

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Iain, - Diagram for PS - in 2 Halves and Key below.
Click to Zoom
Lower Half
Lower Half
Upper Half
Upper Half
Key:
WiringHardware
7118: Secondary torque info7126: electric power steering ECU /
7115: Torque sensor power supply7128: electric power steering torque sensor
7120: Torque sensor temperature info7129: electric power steering motor
7116: Torque sensor earth-
7117: Primary torque info-
9001B: Low Intersystem / Can bus-
9000B: High Intersystem / Can bus-
CM6F: (APC+, Earth)-
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