Xantia 2.1TD a bit smokey
Moderator: RichardW
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Johnno
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 18 Feb 2004, 18:02
- Location: Milford, Godalming
- My Cars: C5 2.2 VTR + Nav 173
Mazda 6 2.2 Sports Nav Estate
Jaguar 3.8 MkII 1961
Ex 2007 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex 2003 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex Xantia 2.1 TD Exclusive
Ex BX 1.7 DTR
Ex BX 1.9 TRS - x 1
Xantia 2.1TD a bit smokey
Hi, I have a 1997 2.1TD VSX which runs pretty well, except for what I believe is an excessive amount of diesel smoke under (even light) acceleration. Once up to speed the exhaust appears clear, and I don't think there is any oil being burnt. Doubtless, worn injectors could be the cause (the car has done 111k)or even a worn pump. Before having the vehicle put onto a test rig, are there any basic checks I can do that may pinpoint the problem?
Leaving aside any catalyst your problem sounds like defective injectors. Have you tried one of the proprietory injector cleaners? If the pump is worn it would eventually fail to produce sufficient pressure to inject properly, but would appear retarded before it got to this state. 110,000 miles is not much for these engines an there appears no general need to re-time pumps on these engines.
I had a similar problem on my BX and cleaned injectors made such an improvement that the head gasket blew after 18 miles! Seriously it made a world of difference with proper fast idling when cold (Increase in speed wasn't noticeable before) and much better performance.
jeremy
I had a similar problem on my BX and cleaned injectors made such an improvement that the head gasket blew after 18 miles! Seriously it made a world of difference with proper fast idling when cold (Increase in speed wasn't noticeable before) and much better performance.
jeremy
Hi Johnno,
Are you sure the smoke is as bad as you think? Has anyone commented on it? Generally all diesels smoke under acceleration and it is quite normal for the smoke to subside under cruising or light throttle conditions. Unless it looks as if the Red Arrows have done a low level flypast then your car may not be smoking as much as you think.
HOWEVER, there are a few simple checks that can be done before resorting to extensive testing.
1)Check the oil level as overfilling will cause an increase in oil consumption above normal and will make the car emit more smoke.
2)Make sure the car isn't overdue for a service. Sounds obvious I know, but old oil and a clogged up air filter increase fuel consumption therefore emissions/smoke particulates. If in doubt change them.
3)Try and ascertain what colour the smoke is. (you may need someone to drive behind you and check)
BLACK SMOKE would seem to indicate large amounts of unburnt diesel. Again make sure air filter is clean and all air intake trunking isn't leaking.
WHITISH GREY SMOKE on starting can indicate incomplete atomisation and can be caused by fuel not reaching correct temperature when start up. Air in the fuel pipes can also make the engine smoke on start up. You would certainly know about this as the car would be a b***er to start and would run (if at all) badly.
WHITISH SMOKE all the time may indicate the above OR a leaking head gasket allowing water/steam into the cylinderS.
4)Check for binding brakes or anything that is making the engine work harder.
5)Make sure the pipe from the intercooler to the injector pump isn't split or pinholed. This pipe enables the pump to increase fuelling when the turbo is under boost. Any holes cause fuelling problems and can cause extra smoke. The car will show a reluctance to accelerate even when you plant the loud pedal and will generally run badly.
There is also an Exhaust Gas Recirculator valve and controller on these engines. This valve allows a small amount of exhaust gases back into the inlet side of the engine under certain conditions. Its supposed to lower emissions and smoke but I am not convinced they actually work after a few years of use.
I very much doubt that the injector pump is at fault. Diesel pumps generally out live the engine with regular fuel filter changes. What kills pumps are non expert'fiddling'without the proper knowledge and tools, or dirt/water getting in the pump innards via fuel system. As pumps are built to the tolerances of a swiss watch, any contamination can cause real problems.
Fuel injectors can wear at the 90,000 mile mark and can cause over fuelling due to diesel leaking past injector seals and poor spray atomisation and pattern. This excess diesel runs down the cylinder bores over time and starts diluting the oil. I have witnessed this on an extremely old/abused Ford Escort diesel taxi which had gone round the solar system in mileage.
Hope this helps and let us know how you get on.
Andrew
1992 XM 2.1 SED 110,000 miles.
Are you sure the smoke is as bad as you think? Has anyone commented on it? Generally all diesels smoke under acceleration and it is quite normal for the smoke to subside under cruising or light throttle conditions. Unless it looks as if the Red Arrows have done a low level flypast then your car may not be smoking as much as you think.
HOWEVER, there are a few simple checks that can be done before resorting to extensive testing.
1)Check the oil level as overfilling will cause an increase in oil consumption above normal and will make the car emit more smoke.
2)Make sure the car isn't overdue for a service. Sounds obvious I know, but old oil and a clogged up air filter increase fuel consumption therefore emissions/smoke particulates. If in doubt change them.
3)Try and ascertain what colour the smoke is. (you may need someone to drive behind you and check)
BLACK SMOKE would seem to indicate large amounts of unburnt diesel. Again make sure air filter is clean and all air intake trunking isn't leaking.
WHITISH GREY SMOKE on starting can indicate incomplete atomisation and can be caused by fuel not reaching correct temperature when start up. Air in the fuel pipes can also make the engine smoke on start up. You would certainly know about this as the car would be a b***er to start and would run (if at all) badly.
WHITISH SMOKE all the time may indicate the above OR a leaking head gasket allowing water/steam into the cylinderS.
4)Check for binding brakes or anything that is making the engine work harder.
5)Make sure the pipe from the intercooler to the injector pump isn't split or pinholed. This pipe enables the pump to increase fuelling when the turbo is under boost. Any holes cause fuelling problems and can cause extra smoke. The car will show a reluctance to accelerate even when you plant the loud pedal and will generally run badly.
There is also an Exhaust Gas Recirculator valve and controller on these engines. This valve allows a small amount of exhaust gases back into the inlet side of the engine under certain conditions. Its supposed to lower emissions and smoke but I am not convinced they actually work after a few years of use.
I very much doubt that the injector pump is at fault. Diesel pumps generally out live the engine with regular fuel filter changes. What kills pumps are non expert'fiddling'without the proper knowledge and tools, or dirt/water getting in the pump innards via fuel system. As pumps are built to the tolerances of a swiss watch, any contamination can cause real problems.
Fuel injectors can wear at the 90,000 mile mark and can cause over fuelling due to diesel leaking past injector seals and poor spray atomisation and pattern. This excess diesel runs down the cylinder bores over time and starts diluting the oil. I have witnessed this on an extremely old/abused Ford Escort diesel taxi which had gone round the solar system in mileage.
Hope this helps and let us know how you get on.
Andrew
1992 XM 2.1 SED 110,000 miles.
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Johnno
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 18 Feb 2004, 18:02
- Location: Milford, Godalming
- My Cars: C5 2.2 VTR + Nav 173
Mazda 6 2.2 Sports Nav Estate
Jaguar 3.8 MkII 1961
Ex 2007 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex 2003 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex Xantia 2.1 TD Exclusive
Ex BX 1.7 DTR
Ex BX 1.9 TRS - x 1
Well, here I am again on this subject. I have changed the air, oil and fuel filters as suggested and generally given the car a once-over. I am now coming to the end of the first tank of fuel after adding injector cleaner (the amount of time taken to use the fuel shows just how little I use a car!) and there appears to be no difference. As an aside I'm not wildly impressed with the economy, either.
Along with the sensitivity to the throttle (in terms of smoke production) the engine sounds too "clattery". By that I mean it sounds <i>too</i> much like a diesel, esp. when compared with a mate's 2.1 and my BX. Could these syptoms be related? Would defective injectors or incorrect timing cause both excessive noise and excessive smoke?
I also have questions over the actions of the Hydractive suspension, but I'll leave that 'till later, as I will search the archived threads first.
Cheers,
Along with the sensitivity to the throttle (in terms of smoke production) the engine sounds too "clattery". By that I mean it sounds <i>too</i> much like a diesel, esp. when compared with a mate's 2.1 and my BX. Could these syptoms be related? Would defective injectors or incorrect timing cause both excessive noise and excessive smoke?
I also have questions over the actions of the Hydractive suspension, but I'll leave that 'till later, as I will search the archived threads first.
Cheers,
Hi, all the foregoing advice is sound and generally spot on. So if you have checked it through then I strongly suggest a change of injectors. 111k is on the high side even for a well maintained and clean set.
The 'clattery' symptoms can be caused by faulty injectors firing off at different rates due to wear.
Not done a set of 2.1s so cannot advise on cost. I am sure someone will let you know.
Good luck, Robin
The 'clattery' symptoms can be caused by faulty injectors firing off at different rates due to wear.
Not done a set of 2.1s so cannot advise on cost. I am sure someone will let you know.
Good luck, Robin
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Johnno
- (Donor 2022)
- Posts: 154
- Joined: 18 Feb 2004, 18:02
- Location: Milford, Godalming
- My Cars: C5 2.2 VTR + Nav 173
Mazda 6 2.2 Sports Nav Estate
Jaguar 3.8 MkII 1961
Ex 2007 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex 2003 C5 2.2 Estate
Ex Xantia 2.1 TD Exclusive
Ex BX 1.7 DTR
Ex BX 1.9 TRS - x 1
Hi guys
Thought I'd wrap this one up. Vis a vis Doc's note about the cambelt change on his XM my experience was similar but perhaps "enhanced" by the sheer disbelief at state of the timing. After finally managing to establish TDC and getting a bolt into that almost totally inaccessible hole in the flywheel the sorry truth emerged that the previous "owner" (I won't sully the term DIYer) had managed to have the injection pump retarded and the cam advanced! The only thing keeping the poor old girl running was the electronics. Hence the furious initial clatter which died away as the pump adjusted.
But what a difference now. Much quieter, no smoke and as flexible and smooth as it should be.
The only problem is, now that the engine is quiet I can hear all the other little buzzes and clunks!!
Ce'st la vie...
Thought I'd wrap this one up. Vis a vis Doc's note about the cambelt change on his XM my experience was similar but perhaps "enhanced" by the sheer disbelief at state of the timing. After finally managing to establish TDC and getting a bolt into that almost totally inaccessible hole in the flywheel the sorry truth emerged that the previous "owner" (I won't sully the term DIYer) had managed to have the injection pump retarded and the cam advanced! The only thing keeping the poor old girl running was the electronics. Hence the furious initial clatter which died away as the pump adjusted.
But what a difference now. Much quieter, no smoke and as flexible and smooth as it should be.
The only problem is, now that the engine is quiet I can hear all the other little buzzes and clunks!!
Ce'st la vie...
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JohnD
- (Donor 2022)
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- Location: Epsom, Surrey
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Johnno</i>
getting a bolt into that almost totally inaccessible hole in the flywheel
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
How that rings a bell! I've done the belt twice now on my 2.1 and I don't bother about putting a rod into the flywheel. I mark the crankshaft and surrounding area with two spots of white paint. I find it works just as well.
getting a bolt into that almost totally inaccessible hole in the flywheel
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
How that rings a bell! I've done the belt twice now on my 2.1 and I don't bother about putting a rod into the flywheel. I mark the crankshaft and surrounding area with two spots of white paint. I find it works just as well.
Marking the position of the sprockets is only okay if they are in the correct relative position in the first place. If they're not (as in Johnno's case) you're just replacing the belt and not correcting any problems. Unless you're 100% satisfied that the last belt change was done correctly, it's worth going the inconvenience of pegging the engine and bolting the sprockets - and rechecking it after the belt has been replaced. It's very easy to get one tooth out!