I am hoping that I do not have a blown cylinder head gasket!. I have an M reg ZX 2.0 16V which has just done 80,000 miles. Upon returning home last night from a 200 mile motorway journey, where the car ran perfectly and all temps were normal, as I pulled into the drive I noticed that coolant was coming out of the radiator cap 'overflow' pipe. It stopped as soon as I stopped the engine, but even just pushing the top of the cap caused more to come out past the seal an into the hose. Later on, with the system still warm I slowly attempted to release the cap but there is obviously still quite a bit of pressure in there. I will have to investigate tonight with it fully cooled. Any ideas what might be going on? Could it just be that the cap/seal is faulty? There is no mayo in the oil filler cap, and the coolant that has come out isn't oily, and there aren't any obvious leaks from the car when it is sat in the garage.
Please someone convince me it isn't the head gasket !!
ZX Coolant Leakage
Moderator: RichardW
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Brian Oblivion
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Have you checked the radiator for all round heat when it gets warm/hot?
If its not warm from top to bottom & side to side it may be blocked or silted up.
If you are not strapped for cash have an independent garage or rad specialist check the system out.
I had three matrix's $ head gaskets in 40k changed by supposed experts before a French mechanic diagnosed a blocked rad. Then no probs for the last 70k.
If its not warm from top to bottom & side to side it may be blocked or silted up.
If you are not strapped for cash have an independent garage or rad specialist check the system out.
I had three matrix's $ head gaskets in 40k changed by supposed experts before a French mechanic diagnosed a blocked rad. Then no probs for the last 70k.
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furyspyder
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The system should be clean. I have changed the heater matrix and the radiator within the past year/18 months. The radiator seemed to be hot all over when I lifted the bonnet just after having switched the engine off.
After having searched the forum I have found some other posts with similar problems. I will check the expansion tank for bubbles with the engine idling and revving slightly to see if this makes any difference.
But in the meantime, any other suggestions are welcomed !!
After having searched the forum I have found some other posts with similar problems. I will check the expansion tank for bubbles with the engine idling and revving slightly to see if this makes any difference.
But in the meantime, any other suggestions are welcomed !!
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oilyspanner
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furyspyder
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The fan has come on once or twice within the past few weeks, when I have been idling in traffic for long periods of time for example, but it has come on no more or less frequently than it ever has before!
I am just about to run it with the cap off and look for bubbles. The trouble is, if there is air in it now, it will bubble if there is a head gasket leak in it or not surely?
I am just about to run it with the cap off and look for bubbles. The trouble is, if there is air in it now, it will bubble if there is a head gasket leak in it or not surely?
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oilyspanner
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Brian Oblivion
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Airlock in the system?
Found this on Honest Johns Backroom RE how to bleed the zx:
Posted by David W on June 3, 2001, 4:38 am , in reply to "Re: Possible faults.
"Years ago cooling systems were simple and filling them just meant pouring in cooolant to
the rad and a few minutes running would self-bleed any small air residue. My 1970 diesel
tractor is like this, big old radiator mounted higher than all the other waterways, no
complicated narrow hose runs curving over the engine - no problems.
But like many other modern cars Citroen's can be a real problem to fill and bleed. Models
with the cap on the radiator are the worse as there is almost no head of water when filling,
even those with the expansion tank aren't much better.
So the method is......
First locate all the bleed points on your particular engine. These may include one
on the radiator opposite the filler cap, two on the thermostat housing, one on the small
hose that leaves the thermostat housing, one on the metal heater feed pipe just behind the
camshaft cover, one on the heater hose just to the rear of the engine, one on a small hose
running just behind the radiator. I do not want to be specific to a particular model/year as
I have seen cars with odd combinations of the normal set-up, just carefully look for them all.
With the engine cool remove the filler cap and fabricate some sort of header tank that
will give about an extra 300mm head of water. Mine is very simple. It is a large plastic
funnel for filling up tractor fuel that has a nozzle about the same size as the filler hole
and holds 3 litres of coolant. I cut the nozzle at a point so that the taper just goes into
the radiator/expansion tank filler hole and a firm push will keep it wedged there. I have seen
loads of other clever solutions to this with little tanks held on a stand and filler hoses that
connect to a modified radiator cap boss, I used mine because it was lying about at the time and
has worked OK for 7 years now.
Now top up the system with coolant and allow the funnel/header tank to fill about 2/3rds.
Bleed each coolant bleed point in turn until bubble-free coolant is seen. Close them all firmly.
Start the engine and allow it to run at a fast idle until the thermostat opens and the radiator
becomes fully hot. During this period you should see loads of small bubbles appear in the
funnel/header tank, and as the thermostat opens a huge amount of air often bubbles up. Now stop
the engine and bleed each point in turn again. Use great care as the coolant will be scalding.
Top up the funnel as needed during this to keep it about 2/3rds full at all times. Close all
bleed points finally and re-start the engine. Allow it to run for up to another five minutes for all the remaining small air bubbles to bleed off.
When you are happy stop the engine and remove the funnel. Put the radiator cap back on with the
coolant still right to the top (ie overfilled by cold standards). Allow the car to cool completely then check the level and add/remove coolant as needed. Give the car two days normal use then check the level again when completely cold. Again add/remove to get the level spot on. Only now consider this an accurate level to monitor from.
Why is this bleeding crucial? Well the thermostat and coolant temperature warning sensors
(and fan switch on some models) are in a position that is easily left air-locked if this procedure isn't properly carried out. And these do not work properly in air, only if the water is in contact with them. So it is possible after a water loss, and re-filling without bleeding, for the engine to go above the thermostat opening temperature without it allowing coolant to the radiator. Then because the temperature senders are also in the air lock they don't indicate a problem. Result engine cooks and the head gasket/head are damaged.
Many Citroen diesel head gasket problems follow a simple loss of water. It is my belief this is
often due to the problem of bleeding the system rather than the initial fault damaging the head/gasket."
Found this on Honest Johns Backroom RE how to bleed the zx:
Posted by David W on June 3, 2001, 4:38 am , in reply to "Re: Possible faults.
"Years ago cooling systems were simple and filling them just meant pouring in cooolant to
the rad and a few minutes running would self-bleed any small air residue. My 1970 diesel
tractor is like this, big old radiator mounted higher than all the other waterways, no
complicated narrow hose runs curving over the engine - no problems.
But like many other modern cars Citroen's can be a real problem to fill and bleed. Models
with the cap on the radiator are the worse as there is almost no head of water when filling,
even those with the expansion tank aren't much better.
So the method is......
First locate all the bleed points on your particular engine. These may include one
on the radiator opposite the filler cap, two on the thermostat housing, one on the small
hose that leaves the thermostat housing, one on the metal heater feed pipe just behind the
camshaft cover, one on the heater hose just to the rear of the engine, one on a small hose
running just behind the radiator. I do not want to be specific to a particular model/year as
I have seen cars with odd combinations of the normal set-up, just carefully look for them all.
With the engine cool remove the filler cap and fabricate some sort of header tank that
will give about an extra 300mm head of water. Mine is very simple. It is a large plastic
funnel for filling up tractor fuel that has a nozzle about the same size as the filler hole
and holds 3 litres of coolant. I cut the nozzle at a point so that the taper just goes into
the radiator/expansion tank filler hole and a firm push will keep it wedged there. I have seen
loads of other clever solutions to this with little tanks held on a stand and filler hoses that
connect to a modified radiator cap boss, I used mine because it was lying about at the time and
has worked OK for 7 years now.
Now top up the system with coolant and allow the funnel/header tank to fill about 2/3rds.
Bleed each coolant bleed point in turn until bubble-free coolant is seen. Close them all firmly.
Start the engine and allow it to run at a fast idle until the thermostat opens and the radiator
becomes fully hot. During this period you should see loads of small bubbles appear in the
funnel/header tank, and as the thermostat opens a huge amount of air often bubbles up. Now stop
the engine and bleed each point in turn again. Use great care as the coolant will be scalding.
Top up the funnel as needed during this to keep it about 2/3rds full at all times. Close all
bleed points finally and re-start the engine. Allow it to run for up to another five minutes for all the remaining small air bubbles to bleed off.
When you are happy stop the engine and remove the funnel. Put the radiator cap back on with the
coolant still right to the top (ie overfilled by cold standards). Allow the car to cool completely then check the level and add/remove coolant as needed. Give the car two days normal use then check the level again when completely cold. Again add/remove to get the level spot on. Only now consider this an accurate level to monitor from.
Why is this bleeding crucial? Well the thermostat and coolant temperature warning sensors
(and fan switch on some models) are in a position that is easily left air-locked if this procedure isn't properly carried out. And these do not work properly in air, only if the water is in contact with them. So it is possible after a water loss, and re-filling without bleeding, for the engine to go above the thermostat opening temperature without it allowing coolant to the radiator. Then because the temperature senders are also in the air lock they don't indicate a problem. Result engine cooks and the head gasket/head are damaged.
Many Citroen diesel head gasket problems follow a simple loss of water. It is my belief this is
often due to the problem of bleeding the system rather than the initial fault damaging the head/gasket."
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furyspyder
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Many thanks for that. Tonight I will do a thorough bleed and see how things go after that. I still want to find out what the source of the air leak was in the first place as something must have caused the air present in the system to get there. Last night I started the engine with the cap off and although there were a couple of bubbles initially (probably due to the fact that there is now air in the system) there wasn't a constant stream. Is it possible for a head gasket failure to be intermittant, i.e. only leak when the car is at motorway temperatures or something? It obviously hadn't leaked for the whole of my 200 mile journey on Sunday night as it would have lost all the fluid. It was just towards the end that it leaked. But last night, with the engine oil temp coolish (only idling) but the water temp high there was no leakage from the cap overflow. There was pressure behind the cap, but this is probably due to expansion of the air now in the system.
Have you tried the morning pressure test?
Leave car overnight so it's stone cold.
Remove and replace radiator cap to release any stored pressure.
Start engine and run for 30 seconds.
Stop engine.
Remove radiator cap and listen for pressure release.
Any pressure build up won't have been caused by heating effects - so it'll most likely be from a head / gasket problem.
Release
Leave car overnight so it's stone cold.
Remove and replace radiator cap to release any stored pressure.
Start engine and run for 30 seconds.
Stop engine.
Remove radiator cap and listen for pressure release.
Any pressure build up won't have been caused by heating effects - so it'll most likely be from a head / gasket problem.
Release
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furyspyder
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furyspyder
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 24 Jun 2003, 06:00
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Well, after last nights efforts, there was no pressure build up after the 30 second 'cold' run. I actually ran it for about 60 seconds but there was no pressure in there. So I went ahead with a full bleed. A small amount of bubbles came through initially into the header tank, and then a large amount as the thermostat opened, and strangely, after this had happened the level in my header tank rose quite a bit and nearly overflowed my tank (it was well above the highest point in the system. Not much air came out of the bleed points (a fair bit from the heater matrix one though, and I temporarily lost the little plastic cap down in the engine bay with one finger over the open tube of ever increasing temperature coolant, engine running, and on my own in the garage!! D'Oh!) and there was no constant stream of bubbles into the tank. At the end of this there was a little bit of oil/water emulsion in the oil filler but it was a cold damp evening. I have never seen this much before but then again I don't open it very often as the car uses hardly any oil.
As I ran it again to try to expel any more air there was very little in there, although by squeezing the large bore upper-right hose attached to the back of the radiator I could cause large bubbles to come up into the header tank. I kept doing this until no more came through.
By the end, the water and oil temperature were up to normal, in fact the water temperature was higher than 'normal' and the fan had already cut in once or twice and the temp had stabilised.
So all done, but I'm still not convinced that I have replaced as much fluid as must have been lost, I'm not sure why the header tank level rose by quite a bit (surely not all due to fluid expansion?) and I'm not confident that I have fully bled all of the system! I'll check the levels tonight when cold and then tomorrow I have to drive to work in it to take it for it's MoT !! I hope it passes, I will have to fit two new front tyres soon and the Michelins I normally fit aren't cheap!
I am just very wary of doing any long journeys now. Spose I'll have to join the RAC of something!
I guess the only way to check it now is to get a garage to do some checks for leaks from the head gasket. I have a good local citroen specialist, but it will still cost !
Unless anyone has any more good ideas or checks that I could do?
Thanks for all the help by the way. This forum is always invaluable.
As I ran it again to try to expel any more air there was very little in there, although by squeezing the large bore upper-right hose attached to the back of the radiator I could cause large bubbles to come up into the header tank. I kept doing this until no more came through.
By the end, the water and oil temperature were up to normal, in fact the water temperature was higher than 'normal' and the fan had already cut in once or twice and the temp had stabilised.
So all done, but I'm still not convinced that I have replaced as much fluid as must have been lost, I'm not sure why the header tank level rose by quite a bit (surely not all due to fluid expansion?) and I'm not confident that I have fully bled all of the system! I'll check the levels tonight when cold and then tomorrow I have to drive to work in it to take it for it's MoT !! I hope it passes, I will have to fit two new front tyres soon and the Michelins I normally fit aren't cheap!
I am just very wary of doing any long journeys now. Spose I'll have to join the RAC of something!
I guess the only way to check it now is to get a garage to do some checks for leaks from the head gasket. I have a good local citroen specialist, but it will still cost !
Unless anyone has any more good ideas or checks that I could do?
Thanks for all the help by the way. This forum is always invaluable.
I take it that you have throughly checked all of the water hoses. I've had leaks in the past that have blown coolant out when hot and under pressure but have shown no sign of leaking when cool. These have nearly always been at the end of hoses where they are clamped - they get hot and old and hard. To make identification harder the coolant can just be boiled off by the engine heat so when you look for pooling water there is none. Check them all very carefully.
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furyspyder
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- Joined: 24 Jun 2003, 06:00
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Hello all,
Just an update - After using the car over the past couple of weekends, I have decided that unfortunately the head gasket <i>is</i> probably the cause of my problems!
Last weekend I did about 200 miles on the saturday. Some motorway and some stop start driving. Everything ran normally, temperatures were normal, and with a cold engine the next day there was no pressure in the system. I used it again that week for a 100 mile round trip and once again no problems.
The weekend just gone I did another 200 mile round trip with some motorway and lots of stop start driving (looking at houses!). Again no problems all day and although the temperature rose a little during some prolonged kerb crawling around housing estates, it wasn't enough to bring the fan on. Then as we were about to start the journey home (some 50 miles, half motorway half 'A' road) it started to misfire, and was clearly only running on three cylinders. I popped open the bonnet and there was no external coolent leakage, the radiator cap was holding tight, there was no pulsing of the coolant hoses and the exhaust wasn't really steamy so I carried on. The misfire dissapeared a while after, only to re-appear again, and contiue until home. When I got home, there was some evidence that coolant had leaked from the radiator cap.
Yesterday morning, with the engine completely cold, I removed the radiator cap and there was still a fair bit of pressure in there and the gas that came out smelt strongly of exhaust fumes. When I started the engine the misfire had gone, but there was clearly quite a bit of water in the exhaust system as it dripped out of the lowest part of the silencer into a pool on the garage floor and was clearly wetter than usual at the outlet pipe. Some coolant had obviously been chucked out on saturday as the level had dropped a bit.
So I'm thinking it is the head gasket, but that it only starts leaking when the engine has been running at normal temperature for at least two hours. There has only been one occasion when temperatures have got very high in this car and that was over 14 months ago when I had a radiator fail without me knowing. The red light came on just before I could stop the car, but that was quite a while ago and I have had no problems since then, until now (even during the very hot summer we had last year). I guess this must have weakened the gasket and it has just gradually got worse recently. Is this possible?
Is there anything I should be wary of when getting someone to do this job for me? I have booked it in to a local independant citroen specialist near me. I have always been very pleased with the work I have done there in the past, and I am a bit of a perfectionist! Current quote is £360+vat with maybe another £50+vat if the head needs to be skimmed. Does this seem resaonable? Haynes says that you can only get one thickness of gasket for the 1998cc engines. Does this mean that the head can't be skimmed? I would have like to have done the job myself over a couple of weekends, but I'm moving house and jobs in two weeks time so just haven't got time to do it now [:(]
Just an update - After using the car over the past couple of weekends, I have decided that unfortunately the head gasket <i>is</i> probably the cause of my problems!
Last weekend I did about 200 miles on the saturday. Some motorway and some stop start driving. Everything ran normally, temperatures were normal, and with a cold engine the next day there was no pressure in the system. I used it again that week for a 100 mile round trip and once again no problems.
The weekend just gone I did another 200 mile round trip with some motorway and lots of stop start driving (looking at houses!). Again no problems all day and although the temperature rose a little during some prolonged kerb crawling around housing estates, it wasn't enough to bring the fan on. Then as we were about to start the journey home (some 50 miles, half motorway half 'A' road) it started to misfire, and was clearly only running on three cylinders. I popped open the bonnet and there was no external coolent leakage, the radiator cap was holding tight, there was no pulsing of the coolant hoses and the exhaust wasn't really steamy so I carried on. The misfire dissapeared a while after, only to re-appear again, and contiue until home. When I got home, there was some evidence that coolant had leaked from the radiator cap.
Yesterday morning, with the engine completely cold, I removed the radiator cap and there was still a fair bit of pressure in there and the gas that came out smelt strongly of exhaust fumes. When I started the engine the misfire had gone, but there was clearly quite a bit of water in the exhaust system as it dripped out of the lowest part of the silencer into a pool on the garage floor and was clearly wetter than usual at the outlet pipe. Some coolant had obviously been chucked out on saturday as the level had dropped a bit.
So I'm thinking it is the head gasket, but that it only starts leaking when the engine has been running at normal temperature for at least two hours. There has only been one occasion when temperatures have got very high in this car and that was over 14 months ago when I had a radiator fail without me knowing. The red light came on just before I could stop the car, but that was quite a while ago and I have had no problems since then, until now (even during the very hot summer we had last year). I guess this must have weakened the gasket and it has just gradually got worse recently. Is this possible?
Is there anything I should be wary of when getting someone to do this job for me? I have booked it in to a local independant citroen specialist near me. I have always been very pleased with the work I have done there in the past, and I am a bit of a perfectionist! Current quote is £360+vat with maybe another £50+vat if the head needs to be skimmed. Does this seem resaonable? Haynes says that you can only get one thickness of gasket for the 1998cc engines. Does this mean that the head can't be skimmed? I would have like to have done the job myself over a couple of weekends, but I'm moving house and jobs in two weeks time so just haven't got time to do it now [:(]
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Brian Oblivion
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I'd have thought about £300 tops inc skim & VAT for a head gasket (but I live in Sheffield and have paid £180 inc VAT so who knows?). They generally farm the head out to a machine shop for checking/skimming.
I've had my ex-Pug 306 1.9 Xld skimmed three times (allegedly - I may have been scammed rather than had my head skimmed!)
Best of luck!!
I've had my ex-Pug 306 1.9 Xld skimmed three times (allegedly - I may have been scammed rather than had my head skimmed!)
Best of luck!!