The evil diesel

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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Peter.N. »

Yes, I remember that too although I didn't appreciate the significance at the time. :?

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Re: The evil diesel

Post by white exec »

Oh that the current government had a grasp on anything... #-o
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by MikeT »

Mandrake wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 10:35The fact that they are focusing on heavily polluted areas like London first does actually show they are doing it for health and pollution reasons in my opinion, not the reverse.


Not at all. They are doing it because campaigners keep taking them to court for breaking the law and the high court judges have ruled three times and ordered them to tackle the pollution.
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Michel »

Mandrake wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 10:35
The fact that they are focusing on heavily polluted areas like London first does actually show they are doing it for health and pollution reasons in my opinion, not the reverse.


No, it's because they can make more money there. There's been no real effort made to make public transport better, cheaper, or more accessible in London - just a hike in the cost of using a diesel car in very small zone of the city. The longest "end-to-end" part of it can be walked in about 3/4 of an hour - it's 3.6 miles. If you follow the live pollution maps, the CC zone is still always the most polluted - probably due to the fact that the busiest roads are the ones that are directly around it (Euston Road, Park Lane etc), not the roads actually *in* the zone..
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Michel »

white exec wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 13:12 Oh that the current government had a grasp on anything... #-o


A grasp on their own wallets, perhaps?
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by MikeT »

A lot of these pollution zones are in fact partly if not mostly of their own making in the guise of reducing accidents by slowing and congesting traffic and of course giving Siemens a whole wad of public money to make traffic lights and other systems we don't need.
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Gibbo2286 »

white exec wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 13:12 Oh that the current government had a grasp on anything... #-o


If it had the same results as before it might not be such a good idea, those industries they grabbed, shipbuilding, steel, coal, have disappeared to the far east, or disappeared altogether.
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Michel »

Gibbo2286 wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 22:29
white exec wrote: 21 Nov 2017, 13:12 Oh that the current government had a grasp on anything... #-o


If it had the same results as before it might not be such a good idea, those industries they grabbed, shipbuilding, steel, coal, have disappeared to the far east, or disappeared altogether.


I don't think that was a factor to be honest. None of the privately owned shoe factories and cotton mills from East Lancs where I'm from exist any more. All gone to the far east. It's no surprise. I've been outsourced, to India. The people who will be doing my job are better qualified and cost ... well, get this.. their monthly take home pay is less than 10% of my monthly take home. I know this as two of them came over last month and we were horrified to find out how little they earnt for doing our job. So much so we all chipped in and made sure they had a good time here.
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by quintet »

I wonder how many people are aware that diesel emission limits are soon to change?
This is an excerpt taken from a recent 'special notice' sent out to all MOT testers.

" 2.2 What you need to know
The amended limits to be applied from 20 May 2018 are:

1. First used before July 2008 Non-turbo 2.5m-1 or plate value if lower
Turbo 3.0m-1 or plate value if lower
2. First used on or after 1 July 2008 All diesels 1.5m-1 or plate value if lower
3. First used on or after 1 January 2014 All diesels 0.7m-1 or plate value if lower

Note: Plate value is the emission limit specified by the vehicle manufacturer and can be found on the vehicle manufacturer’s plate. If there’s no emission value on the manufacturer’s plate or it can’t be located, then the alternative default values must be used. "
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Another article here. I posted a year or so ago about the new MOT test coming in to detect tampering of the emissions system - so about time for those of us who try and do the right thing by keeping it operating properly. I do feel sorry for those who bought a car second hand and were honestly not aware that the DPF / EGR had been removed / blanked. That's the hidden cost to others passed on by those who choose to remove them and another reason why it's not condoned here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41761864

I think it is aimed mostly at Euro 6 and some Euro 5 engines after the emissions scandal and the fact that they were pumping out up to 6 times more emissions in the real world than in the lab - so it looks like they are cutting the smoke test range down for these cars
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Paul-R »

In my motor club magazine this month is an "Inside the Industry" article by Paul Gilligan. Part of it concerns emissions and, in particular, London. I'm copying that part verbatim. I'm particularly interested in the bit about "whole life emissions". It backs up what I was saying earlier on.

Which Cars Are Clean, Arguments Continue

It seems if you look at two studies of the conflicting emissions of petrol, diesel and electric cars you’ll get three different answers. Whilst diesel remains under attack, particularly from the Mayor of London, independent tests have proved that the cleanest latest diesels now emit significantly less Nitrogen Dioxide (NOx) than the latest petrols.

Well respected Emissions Analytics proved a BMW 3.0 Diesel 5 Series emitted 23mg of NOx per km, less than a third of the legal limit. A 1.2 litre Petrol Renault Kadjar emitted 135mg per km, six times as much as the BMW diesel and over 50% of the legal limit! Important to note that these were “real world” tests not the much questioned laboratory ones.

The tests proved that the cleanest 10% of new diesel cars average 70mg of NOx per km, the dirtiest 10% of petrol cars average 129mg per km, nearly twice as much! And however you test there is no doubt petrols emit on average much more CO2 than diesels. In fact the imposition of real world tests and reduction in diesel sales mean it will be impossible for manufacturers to meet the EU requirement for average CO2 emissions of 95g per km by 2012. What one wonders will the EU and the Mayor of London do then? Tell us to buy diesels again as the Government told us to do in 2000?

And of course the emissions from the vehicle while being driven are only part of the story. The true test is “Lifecycle Emissions” which cover the emissions created by procuring and manufacturing the required components, building the car, producing the required fuel during its life, emissions while being driven, emissions produced during eventual scrapping and recycling.

One of the most highly respected scientific institution in the World, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has just released a study comparing these whole life emissions for a Tesla Model S pure electric, a BMW 750i Petrol and a small petrol car being the Mitsubishi Mirage. Total distance covered for each was set at 270,000 km or just under 170,000 miles. Total was not surprisingly highest for the BMW, a large saloon with a 5 litre petrol engine, nearly 104,000kgs or 385 gm of CO2 per km.

The Tesla was much better at 61,000 kgs or 226gm/km. However the Mirage better still at 52,000 kgs or 192gm/km. Reason being 60% less emissions were produced during production, slightly less during use, and almost 50% less in end of life. Batteries are very “dirty” to produce and scrap so unless customers accept electric cars with small batteries and therefore limited range small petrols will remain the cleaner choice. Don’t expect the Greens to believe you, they no doubt know much more than MIT!
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by bobins »

That's an interesting read, Paul. The 'whole life emissions' reminds me of a quote that was doing the rounds in the late 80s - early 90s regarding Land Rovers. It was something along the lines of "The average Series Land Rover consumes less energy in its entire lifetime than a modern car consumes in its design and build". I fully realise that it's doubtful that would have stood up to detailed examination then - and would almost certainly be shot down in flames now...... but it does help to make the point that it's not just what comes out of the tailpipe that we need to worry about. :wink:
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by white exec »

The 3.0m-1 figure (for turbo pre-2008) has been operating here in Spain for some time.
XM (2.5TD) normally clocks between 1.5 and 2.0 on the annual test.

On the other article above, I was thrown a bit by its comparing a cleanest diesel with a dirtiest petrol. OK, it makes the point about the difficulty with "blanket" legislation and regulations, but vehicles need to be compared like-for-like, assuming the choice to be made is what engine to select, not what type/size of vehicle.

The author really ought to know what 'NOx' means, too. It isn't nitrogen dioxide, but 'oxides of nitrogen', which includes all three of them: nitrogen dioxide, nitric oxide, and nitrous oxide. All three of them are hazardous in different ways.

The thrust of the article is right, though. Smoke and particles are seen and felt, and it's easier to point at what you can see and touch and have to wash off, rather than the invisible killers and hazards - which includes CO2. Endless shots of power stations pushing out clouds of white get used on news reports, when what these cooling towers are actually spewing out is steam/water vapour.

I don't think the UK government are committed to taking any really effective action on air quality. They just need to be seen to be doing (saying) something . . . anything . . . whether it's effective or not. The Mayor of London, and others, are on a different tack, thank goodness. A good first step would be for the public to see Ministers being ferried about in electric vehicles (quite up to the job), rather than two-ton Jaguars.
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Re: The evil diesel

Post by Peter.N. »

If they grossly increased the nitrous oxide output - it would stop everyone worrying about it. 8-) :wink:

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Re: The evil diesel

Post by white exec »

No laughing matter, Peter! :rofl2:
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