Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

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Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by Michel » 05 Nov 2017, 08:09

Well, I still continue my hunt for a C4 GP, of 2007-2009 age, as they are the ones that seem to fall in range of my budget.

Annoyingly, all the best ones all have the EGS gearbox. I am curious to know just how bad it is - most of them seem to have been totally reliable. I know Davie had horrors with his Sensodrive in his C2, and others have had issues, but are they *really* that bad? There must be plenty of them out there that work. Is it worth taking a punt on one if the rest of the car is really good, and the gearbox appears to work ok?

Your thoughts, as ever gentlemen, would be appreciated..
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by RichardW » 05 Nov 2017, 09:05

Well.... it has 2 main issues:

1. Driveability. It has a reputation for being lurchy, slow to change, and often in the wrong gear, and there's no creep so manouevering can be difficult. I wonder if part of the lurchiness is due to drivers and the gearbox lifting off during a change - not driven one enough to find out. Only way to find out if you can live with it is to drive it.

2. Cost of repairs. The box fitted to the C4 does seem to be better than that to the C2 but the clutch tends to last only 60-80k, replacing it costs north of a grand, as there's a combined internal concentric slave / release bearing, and the work can only be done by someone with Lexia or equivalent as this is needed to bleed and program the actuator. When they do go wrong, no one seems to be able to fix them, or not without spending vast sums of money - the actuator etc is well over a grand. Someone here paid out £2200 to a Cit dealer to get theirs fixed. My mate had one that lunched the gearbox, despite a replacement box and actuator parts, and spending something like 3 grand on it, it still wouldn't go and he sold for spares at a huge loss.

If you can find one that has had the clutch done, and are prepared to write it off it it gives trouble, and can live with the drive, then go for it!
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by CitroJim » 05 Nov 2017, 09:14

I think you have just killed any interest in an EGS equipped car Richard...

Except as an interesting project perhaps....
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by momag46 » 05 Nov 2017, 09:36

I,ve had five cars with this gearbox and thy have been very reliable. The first was an early c4 and That one could be wrong-footed (slow down at a roundabout, then put your foot down and it would be in wrong gear and hesitate) but each later car the box got bettter and better. My last egs one, a c4 Picasso was excellent, a lot depends on how you drive. As with an auto, if you drive aggressively the box has to change quickly and therefore can be a bit snatch, drive smoothly and the changes are almost unnoticeable.

There is a lot of rubbish spoken about these boxes by people who have never owned one and in some cases not even driven one. There in loads of stuff about the system on this forum about the egs box, try searching.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by bobins » 05 Nov 2017, 09:44

I think Lighty's had a few in over the years - might be worth making contact with him and asking his opinion on likely problems, costs, how common the problems are etc.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 05 Nov 2017, 10:54

It was member RENAGADE who had a lot of issues with his system as fitted to his C5 - detailed here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57855&hilit=gearbox

I've driven many of these - Personally I don't like them to drive. Mechanically, with my manual 6 speed I know I'm going to need to replace the clutch and DMF - but with this system, on top of those, it can bring a whole new level of extra things to do and of course things to go wrong that I would suggest need specialist handling / training. For me it would have to be me piloting the Manual - or fully automatic.

It is quite a complex system. I've listed some of the components here for those that may be interested in the system:

Main System Components:
Clutch, Piloted Manual Gearbox, Piloting Actuator, Electro-Hydraulic Unit, Actuator Electro-Pump, Piloted Manual Gearbox ECU, Piloting Electrovalves, - Pressure Sensor, Position Sensors, Actuator Electro-Pump Unit Electric Motor, Pressure Accumulator (basically a suspension sphere) & finally Hydraulics reservoir.

Operations to be Performed:
These are the list of procedures that may or may not need doing depending if the component is removed / refitted or replaced and whenever the oil is topped up or changed.

Reading of the counters
Writing of the counters
Depressurisation of the piloting actuator
Pressurisation of the piloting actuator
Bleeding of the air in the hydraulic circuit
Initialisation of the bite point
Programming of the piloted manual gearbox grille
Reinitialisation of the programmed values
Learning: Value of the engine torque transmitted to the clutch

Here are some pics of the main components:
Actuator (Electro-hydraulics & Electro-pump)
C4 MCP A.PNG
Actuator Electro-pump detail
(3) High pressure hose.
(4) Reservoir return pipe.
(5) Hydraulic reservoir for piloted manual gearbox.
(6) Pressure accumulator.
(7) Actuator electro-pump unit electric motor.
C4 MCP B.PNG
Actuator Electro-hydraulics
(8) Piloted manual gearbox ECU.
(9) Decluch piping.
(10) Gear engagement position sensor.
(11) Gear selection position sensor.
C4 MCP C.PNG
Declutch Unit
(12) Hydraulic piping union.
(13) Declutch bearing.
(14) Travel sensor.
(15) Electrical connector.
C4 MCP D.PNG
System 'in Situ'
C4 MCP E.PNG
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by daviemck2006 » 05 Nov 2017, 12:50

I would never buy one, both because of my c2 being unreliable, but also because of the poor drive in town. Out of town it was great fun using the flappy paddles and plenty of revs. But I cant see that being how you would want to drive a diesel gp! I found it frustrating in town, whether using paddles or auto mode. Try parking in a tight space wanting to move 6 inches or a foot. No movement, a tiny bit more throttle, lurch forward, hit the object you are trying to park beside. However there must be reliable ones about, like every other car theres good and bad, but you really need to take it for a long run, and try reverse parking in asdas carpark, find roundabouts and akward junctions to see if you could live with it, then as someone said be prepared to write it off if it breaks.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by EDC5 » 07 Nov 2017, 16:48

GiveMeABreak wrote:
05 Nov 2017, 10:54

C4 MCP D.PNG

System 'in Situ'
C4 MCP E.PNG

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


That is a scary amount of stuff to go wrong!

I've said it before but when I was looking at getting a C5 I weighed up the transmission options and the torque converter auto box was the only one that made sense (to me).

The DMF / clutch issues of manual PSA vehicles would have me looking at an incredibly expensive and inevitable repair bill that got closer every time I used the car. The complexity of the EGS system combined with a poor test drive in a 308 1.6 EGS meant that was out too.

At least with the AM6 the most expensive repair (save a complete rebuild of the box itself) is the valve block that doesn’t appear to be a gearbox off job to replace and can be bought (new) for £500 or so.

The worst thing about the EGS for me was the over-revving when it decided to declutch to change gear, I felt like I was putting in all the mental effort of driving a manual just to anticipate when it would change and then ease off to avoid the revs shooting up.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 07 Nov 2017, 17:49

EDC5 wrote:
07 Nov 2017, 16:48
The worst thing about the EGS for me was the over-revving when it decided to declutch to change gear, I felt like I was putting in all the mental effort of driving a manual just to anticipate when it would change and then ease off to avoid the revs shooting up.
That was exactly my thoughts when driving them. That and the 'lurch' everytime it changed gear if you dare decided to give it any more than the slightest touch on the accelerator pedal.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by CitroJim » 07 Nov 2017, 18:42

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting all this, it's got me really curious...
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by EDC5 » 07 Nov 2017, 20:46

So does this mean that on a 1.6 hdi C5 with hydractive as an option and EGS there could be 3 separate electro-hydraulic pumps on the car? :lol:
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by Sloppysod » 07 Nov 2017, 20:49

I had a 2011 C4 EGS,
Pros' I found driving the car fairly easy, and parking was a bit of a doddle really, yes there was no creep but you get use to it, the flappy paddles were a good toy to play with, with them you naturally think it should have changed gear, so you do it yourself. When driving, if you lift your foot just as the in-gear number on the dash changes you get really smooth changes. much better fuel economy than a convention full auto.
Cons' Wifey did not like driving it, she preferred a full auto (Could have been classed as a pro!), pulling away from roundabouts could get interesting, if you are not careful you could be 1/2 a cars length into the roundabout when the car suddenly decides you want the next gear, resulting in a blank spot with no drive, I found the manual mode sorted this for quick getaways.

Result - Had the car for just under two a years (lost ££££'s :? ), and sold it as I was starting to get DMF vibration and clutch slip (32,000 miles ish) and realised this could get very expensive quickly.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by GiveMeABreak » 07 Nov 2017, 20:55

Well we've all got the new Aisin 8 speed coming out in 2018 - on the 308 first methinks. No excuse for not getting a smooth ride then!
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by crapday69 » 08 Nov 2017, 08:12

I like this box. Had it on my C4 for 6 years and now on my C5. My wife prefers the true auto on her DS3.
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Re: Just how "bad" is the EGS Gearbox?

Post by momag46 » 08 Nov 2017, 18:43

Just remembered, my first 07 C4 had a sport button for the box that was dropped later. It made the changes in 1.2 seconds!
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