Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by Sloppysod » 13 Oct 2017, 08:26

Thanks EDC5, so that little round 'tank' with two pipe connectors just below the control block is the cooler/heat exchanger and does both, heats and cools the gearbox oil.
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by GiveMeABreak » 13 Oct 2017, 08:37

Here Stu:
Oil Water Cooler.PNG
You have the Euro 5 engine, so AW-1 oil.

Capacity is 7 litres of oil, 4 litres remaining after draining 3 litres using procedure.
The gearbox must be drained when the oil is hot (60 °C minimum), to eliminate the impurities suspended in the oil.

Procedure:
Draining
Put the vehicle on a hoist. (remember to raise suspension and remove LDS cap if suspending with wheels hanging free)
AM6 Oil 1.PNG
Remove :
The protective panel under the engine
The top-up plug (2) ; Using a TORX socket wrench
The oil overflow and drainage plug (1) ; Using a 6 -sided wrench
Approximately 3 litres of oil should flow out.

Refilling
Refit :
The oil overflow and drainage plug (1) (equipped with a new seal)
The top-up plug (2) ; Using a TORX socket wrench
AM6 Oil 2.PNG
Remove :
The air filter housing
The filler cap (3)
Refit the filler plug (3) (equipped with a new seal).
Initialise the used oil counter (follow the diagnostic tool procedure).

Check the oil level
Prior conditions :
Vehicle level
Check that the gearbox is not in downgrade mode
Remove the filler plug (3)
Add 0,5 additional litres of oil in the gearbox
Apply the brakes firmly and move the lever through the various selector positions
Gear lever in position "P"
Engine running at idle
Oil temperature 60°C (+ 8 ; - 2 °C) (measuring of parameters using a diagnostic tool)

Stream of oil then reducing to a sequence of drips:
Remove the oil level plug (2).

Sequence of drips or nothing:
Refit the oil level plug (2).
Stop the engine.
Add 0,5 additional litres of oil in the gearbox.
Repeat the top-up procedure.

The level of oil is correct when the stream of oil becomes drop by drop.

Refit the oil level plug (2) (equipped with a new seal).

Check the oil level (continued)
Refit :
The filler cap (3) (equipped with a new seal)
The air filter box
The protective panel under the engine

Too high a fluid level can cause :
Overheating of the fluid
Fluid leaks

Too low a level will lead to destruction of the gearbox.
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by Sloppysod » 14 Oct 2017, 17:40

Thanks Mark from the info, search around the site has given me some more information, sump seals etc, but the oil has got me stumped. I need AW-1!!
However, here's the rub, I have been told by Opie oils that "The 3309 cannot cover the AW-1, but it does work the other way round. AW-1 can be used in place of 3309. Its all marketing really." and they can supply AW-1 spec oil from G-Force but further hunting expands to G-force oil actually is manufactured by Gazpromneft Lubricants’ who are Russian, and I am not confident about the quality :?:
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by white exec » 14 Oct 2017, 17:54

Perhaps not a good idea to be putin that Russian oil in the box.
Worth just getting the proper stuff from Citroen?
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by Sloppysod » 14 Oct 2017, 18:21

white exec wrote:
14 Oct 2017, 17:54
Perhaps not a good idea to be putin that Russian oil in the box.
Worth just getting the proper stuff from Citroen?

My thoughts exactly, but as I expect to be buying 8-10 litres of the stuff I need to find a better / cheaper supplier.
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by white exec » 14 Oct 2017, 18:40

There are some occasions where price shouldn't be the prime consideration, and modern 'box oil is one of them.
You won't be doing this very often, after all.

Just putin my two penny'worth in... again...
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by GiveMeABreak » 14 Oct 2017, 18:48

Stu

Here is a Total equivalent that states it meets AW-1 specifications - it is TOTAL FLUIDMATIC MV LV
One UK supplier:
https://www.alza.co.uk/hobby/total-flui ... toChange=1
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by tich731 » 14 Oct 2017, 20:26

I have just bought 10 litres of Total Fluidmatic MVLV from http://specialisedproducts.co.uk/ for the gearbox on my C6. I visited them in person and they were very helpful. I do not know if they would post.
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by CitroJim » 15 Oct 2017, 05:15

I would definitely concur that it would not be wise to skimp on the ATF. I'd only use exactly as advised by the manufacturer.

I'd not even use one that says it's compatible with what's required following a lot of research into the ATF requirements of the ZF 4HP20 'boxes...
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by Sloppysod » 15 Oct 2017, 08:57

I agree with most of the above, hence the reason why I did not buy the Russian stuff. I understand you pay for what you get, however, the gearbox is not Citroën, it is Aisin Warner and fitted to a lot of cars, Fiat, Ford, Toyota, Volvo and Vauxhall just to name a few.
I am also not going to buy an oil that says it is compatible with AW-1 and JSW3309 or any other older spec, because they all have different viscosities as shown on the datasheets and a Aisin Euro 5, needs a low viscosity ATF.
Thanks again, Stu
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by EDC5 » 15 Oct 2017, 10:08

Do you think there is any longevity difference between JWS3309 and AW-1?

I'm assuming AW-1 is thinner to reduce drag, but does it lubricate just as well?
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by Sloppysod » 15 Oct 2017, 11:19

EDC5 wrote:
15 Oct 2017, 10:08
Do you think there is any longevity difference between JWS3309 and AW-1?

I'm assuming AW-1 is thinner to reduce drag, but does it lubricate just as well?

I am not sure, about if it lubricates better or not, but there is a possibility that when Aisin made the Euro 5 mods they made some oil ways smaller, therefore if you Put a thicker oil in a box designed for a thin oil you could have problems. As Opie said AW-1 will go in JSW3309, but not the other way around.
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by EDC5 » 15 Oct 2017, 11:58

Ah ok, I see. I was just curious if Aisin changing the gearbox oil was the only thing between Euro 4 and 5 certification :lol:
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by GiveMeABreak » 15 Oct 2017, 13:28

So I'm just going to throw this in for debate as I think it is relevant to this whole 'Euro' Engine / Emissions standard debacle.

[1] - The procedures state:
The oil type "AW-1" in AT6 and AM6 gearboxes with engine version Euro 5 is specific and cannot be replaced with oil type ""JWS 3309
Ok, so that makes sense so far.

[2] - Next, regarding the PSA / Euro Designations
The PSA 'Levels' are not the same as the 'Euro standards' on some VIN specifications, so be careful. So where it says 'Vehicle Technical Depollution' or 'Emissions Standard (Engine)', the 'L4' or 'L5' does not correspondent to the Euro Standards. See the following table for equivalents:
Euro Designations.PNG
As an example - here is an extract from the relevant VIN specs, from two C5 (X7) DW10BTED4 engines. One is a 2008 and one a 2009 model. Note the first one (2008) refers to 'L5', but it is actually a Euro 4 engine.
2008 X7 DW10BTED Euro.PNG
The second (2009) actually now states 'Euro 5'
2009 X7 DW10BTED Euro.PNG
Although it might seem the engines are the same - they are not quite - the 2008 is an 'RHR' (100 kW) and the 2009 is an 'RHF' (103 kW)

[3] Now look at the engine codes table below
Marc Table.PNG
According to this table both the RHR & RHF DW10BTED4 engines (referred to above) AND the later 163 DWC engines are all under the 'ENGINE TYPE EURO 4' Column!
So the wider question now is
  • Are ALL these engines listed in the table actually Euro 4 engines?
  • Are ALL these Euro 4 engines as a minimum, but may, depending on your engine code & VIN Specs. actually be Euro 5 compliant?
  • Are we more confused now than ever?
We do know that PSA were well ahead of the pack bringing in Euro compliant standards sometimes years before is was law, but it is certainly not crystal!
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Re: Asin 6 speed auto - Clunk

Post by bobins » 15 Oct 2017, 13:47

Interesting investigation, Marc. It might explain why I ended up with a Euro 4 German emissions sticker for my car ! I'd sent a copy of my V5 to a mate who got an emissions sticker from his local garage for me. 8-[ :wink: I was expecting it to be a Euro 5 sticker, but I got a Euro 4 one. My engine is a 2009 RHF variant. It may be down to the fact that they weren't really concentrating too much at the garage though :lol:
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