C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

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C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

As a new owner of a C5 I'm not exactly sure if what is normal with regards to the suspension and handling, what I do know is that with the suspension in "normal mode" the body roll is significant, sometimes the side swabs in the seat have to work very hard... I can live with this, however it's soft to the point that when going over a large pothole or bump in the road I could hear a bang! Almost as if the suspension was bottoming out.... I'm guessing this isn't normal.
Earlier today I went on a spirited drive and again with the suspension in "normal" moved the wheel left and right repeatedly, well things got very loose to the point that I didn't feel safe, there appeared to be no damping of the lateral movement.

So I repeat the test in "sport" mode and it's a different, corners flat, roundabouts can be taken tight and at speed etc. It even felt much better over large bumps and potholes.

What I am asking is: Could the two "comfort" spheres be bust allowing too much oil movement meaning the car is under-damped?

Just a note, the C5 is 8 years old and I don't think any of the spheres have ever been changed.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

Just another thing, when it comes to buying new spheres, is it better to get genuine citroen ones or are these suitable?

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http://www.sphere-shop.co.uk/20-hdi-1196-c.asp

They look the correct shape unlike some other manufacturer's spheres.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by xantia_v6 »

The term "Comfort spheres" is usually used to refer to after-market spheres which have increase pressure and less damping than standard spheres to give a softer ride I presume the you are not talking about them? Unless they have previously been fitted.

You will get symptoms similar to what you have described if HA3 corner spheres have been fitted in place of the HA3+ spheres that your car should have. Can you read the part number on the spheres?

Genuine Citroen spheres will have multi-layer diaphragms which last 10+ years, all after-market suppliers use older technology diaphragms which only last about 4 years.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

Ditto what Mike has said above. The genuine Citroen spheres can be twice as much, but have a much longer life. The rear and front centre spheres are called 'stiffness regulator accumulators' - 1 at the front and 2 for the rear.

On the X7 saloon and estate, for your particular engine, the corner spheres should be 50 Bar pressure for the fronts. The rears are 40 Bar for the saloon and 50 for the estate.
The Front Centre accumulator sphere should be 70 Bar for your car.
The rear centre accumulator spheres for the saloon all models should be 44 bar and 52 for the estate. The whole system is maintenance free for 5 years or 200k Kilometres (125k Miles). The centre spheres are obviously working as when they cut out in sport mode you can feel the car firm up considerably with lateral roll seriously curtailed. I find I have to use this mode on windy country roads quite often. Going over a speed hump or a not very well recessed road drain grate can make a loud noise - giving the impression that something has gone - but that's just the way it can sound on deep pot holes - and speed humps taken at some speed.

So a complete set of 7 spheres for the X7 will be under the £800 mark to buy, but unless you have good reason to suspect one or any of them it might be an unnecessary cost. I'm still on my original set at 69k.

Personally, I would NOT use any non-genuine Citroen spheres. They are not made to the same quality and will not last nearly as long.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by white exec »

All I'd add to that good advice above from Mike and Marc is that it can be easy to jump to a conclusion about which sphere (or suspension component) is responsible for a problem. Using good genuine spheres is a very wise move, but expensive for wholesale/blanket replacement, which is unlikely to be necessary, except at very high mileages and after years of neglect.

A good bit of diagnostic wisdom has built up here, which helps to narrow down misbehaving spheres, but it needs a reasonably good description of how the car handles, and responds to a few simple tests. The more information you can provide, the easier the diagnosis.

Latest type 'saucer' spheres don't help, by not having the possibility to check their gas pressure or refill. The upside is that the later, genuine Citroen, triple-layer spheres have a longer service life before needing attention.

Also worth making sure, as said above, that the spheres are all exactly the right original spec for the car - capacity/pressure/damping. Correct OE part numbers nail this down, along with sphere data. It's generally agreed that the cars run at their best when fitted with spheres to original spec, in a decently maintained state. Fitment of aftermarket 'comfort' spheres is sometimes done when a suspension defect fails to be spotted or is overlooked; only in very rare cases is there a straightforward reason for using them.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by Paul-R »

All I can add is that AFAIK there are no comfort spheres available for the X7.

I've looked for them and whenever I've made a post regarding them haven't received a reply. So, unless someone can provide a link, as far as I'm concerneda they don't exist.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

Thanks for the replies, a lot of information there.

Apologies, by comfort spheres I meant the rigidity regulation spheres, the two at the back and the one at the front.

Interesting to note the long service life of the spheres. The car is 8 years old now and only done 57k miles so I'm guessing they shouldn’t be too knackered.

I'll get under the car this afternoon and check part numbers however I suspect that they are all original as the two front spheres under the bonnet are Citroen.

I guess I'm just a bit paranoid really and have never driven a hydrastine Citroen before so I have no point of reference to compare with but didn’t expect the body roll in normal mode.

Just confirming what I've read in another thread: when I lift the whole car up on a car lift I should set the suspension to high and take the LDS cap off?

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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by Paul-R »

EDC5 wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 11:25The car is 8 years old now and only done 57k miles so I'm guessing they shouldn’t be too knackered.
When I sold my Mk1 C5 last year it was 13 years old and had the original spheres (only four as it was H3) still fitted.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

EDC5 wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 11:25 I guess I'm just a bit paranoid really and have never driven a hydrastine Citroen before so I have no point of reference to compare with but didn’t expect the body roll in normal mode.

Hydrastine? Neither have I :rofl2: :wink:
Just confirming what I've read in another thread: when I lift the whole car up on a car lift I should set the suspension to high and take the LDS cap off?
If this is going on a 4 post lift where the wheels will be supported on the lift, then no need.
If at least 2 wheels will be lifted off the ground and unsupported (hanging freely), then raise the suspension to high, then undo the LDS cap before lifting the car up on the post. When completed, lower the car from the lift and when back on the ground you can replace the LDS cap and return suspension to normal.

There are several lifts - the drive-on ones where the wheels are supported and the the ones where they lift the car at the jacking points, leaving the wheels hanging. ATS use these as they can take the wheels off and put them on again at body height easily enough - but they should be aware of the procedure. I personally watch them like a hawk and don't rely on them remembering, so am always present when having wheels changed wherever I go to make sure they follow the procedure.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

GiveMeABreak wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 11:52
EDC5 wrote: 09 Jul 2017, 11:25 I guess I'm just a bit paranoid really and have never driven a hydrastine Citroen before so I have no point of reference to compare with but didn’t expect the body roll in normal mode.

Hydrastine? Neither have I :rofl2: :wink:

Haha, that’s my autocorrect causing trouble again.... luckily this is a relatively benign incident compared to some I'd prefer to forget! :oops: :oops:

Thanks for confirming that, I have access to a single arm car lift that lifts on four rubber pads that are moved under the jacking points so I'll follow that procedure.

Now you mention it, I've just had 2 new tyres fitted and since then I noticed a bit of LDS weeping from the vented cap, hopefully no lasting damage has been done but I'm not sure how they lifted the C5 up? Maybe my LDS tank is overfilled to begin with.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by GiveMeABreak »

The vented cap is only sufficient to allow small variances of pressure I suspect. The impact of significant pressure resulting from ignoring the procedure or being unaware of it, would be more than could be handled by the vented cap I suspect.

Always make sure you tell them, or if possible, undo the cap yourself. You don't want to rely on the fitters knowing or remembering.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

Right then, after lifting the C5 and having a good look around I found a fair bit of corrosion unfortunately.

Image

Image

The corrosion mainly seems focussed on the two rear regulation spheres. Citroen's attempt at shrouds/trays leaves a lot to be desired compared to the ones at the front of the car in my opinion.
The rear spheres seemed ok, with a little surface rust:

Image

Either way, I couldn't read any part numbers but I have no reason to suspect that any of them have been renewed.

Should any anti-rust steps be taken at this point, especially the badly corroded ferrule in the second pic?
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by Stickyfinger »

This confirms what I found and the pics I posted.....I cleaned mine all up and heavily coated the parts in dinatrol wax after painting them. Like my car the problem was very localised.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by EDC5 »

How did you clean them up if you don't mind me asking?, sandpaper / wirewool or something else?

I've got some Waxoyl in the garage that might be suitable to coat the fittings in after I've cleaned the rust off.

Yeah, I'm pleased to see the issue as a local one, specifically the hydractive components. I'm guessing a steel sprung C5 would be spotless underneath.
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Re: C5 X7 Hydractive 3+ Possible Fault

Post by Stickyfinger »

I used a wire brush, strips of carbide paper and rust converter, anything I had at hand to be honest as it did not need to look good........I then painted with dinatrol after zinc painting them....
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